Examination of Witnesses (Questions 8080
8080. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: I shall
be most interested when we come to our consideration to hear what
my colleagues think about what we have heard on this. I have to
tell you, you have frightened my socks off!
8081. BARONESS FOOKES: You mean five
years with no appreciable result at the end of it?
(Mr Berryman) No appreciable result for whom, my Lady?
8082. For anybody, by the sound of it. There
will not be any rail link to Terminal 5, is that what I understand
to be the case?
(Mr Berryman) No, my Lady, the Heathrow Express service will
go to Terminal 5. All of the Heathrow Express service will be
diverted to Terminal 5. The Crossrail services will go to Terminal
4. If you are going from the centre of London to Terminal 5 by
Heathrow Express you just get on the train at Paddington as you
do now and get off at Terminal 5. If you want to use Crossrail
you have got two choices: you can get off at Paddington and change
on to Heathrow Express, or you can go to central area terminals,
which will be served by Crossrail, and make a same platform interchange
onto a Heathrow Express train which will go into Terminal 5.
8083. Crossrail itself will not go into Terminal
(Mr Berryman) No, my Lady, it will go into Terminal 4.
8084. BARONESS FOOKES: This is what was
8085. LORD SNAPE: I think it might be
helpful to the Committee if you explain it is an operational decision
and not a physical decision.
(Mr Berryman) I thought I had just said that, my Lord.
8086. LORD SNAPE: The trouble is that
it has obviously not been too well grasped.
8087. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: You have
said it twice but we do not understand what you mean by an "operational
(Mr Berryman) My Lord, if I give you another example which
is completely unrelated to Heathrow. Years ago there used to be
Intercity trains to Blackpool; they no longer run. If you wanted
to put them back on you could do so simply without doing anything
physical to the railway?
8088. Just by running a train and putting it
into the timetable, is that what you are saying?
(Mr Berryman) Exactly it is purely an operational matter.
It is not something which affects the infrastructure.
8089. MR ELVIN: Mr Berryman, the position
is this: the rail and the infrastructure is all there; the trains
do not run to T5 because of the agreement with BAA and BA?
(Mr Berryman) That is correct, Mr Elvin, yes.
8090. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: Mr Berryman,
I think what we have heard from you is going to be the subject
of a future Daily Mail front page headline and every word you
have said will be presented back in some different way. I think
we all need to be aware that we are subscribing to your views
in that, if we are subscribing to those views, we are getting
tarred with the Daily Mail front page one day.
(Mr Berryman) Thank you for reminding me of that, my Lord,
I am sure you are right.
8091. LORD SNAPE: You will have the sympathy
of some members of the Committee if it does appear on the front
page of the Daily Mail!
(Mr Berryman) May I just make a point about the trains which
will operate on the Crossrail service. It would be a mistake to
think that the trains will be luxurious or comfortable
8092. MR ELVIN: Mr Berryman, I think
you would like to reconsider that!
(Mr Berryman) Sorry, my Lord, I just dug a large hole for
myself; may I scramble back out of the side of it! The main point
about the trains which will be used on Crossrail is that they
will be high capacity trains. They will have lots of space for
standing passengers; they will have lots of doors so you can get
in and out quickly, and so on. The kind of offer which BA, the
airline, is trying to make to its passengers is to extend their
experience of flying I can feel a joke coming on, my Lords,
but I am going to resist the temptation because the BAA representatives
are in the room. I will resist the obvious joke. Their idea is
that the quality of Heathrow Express is akin to the quality of
business class air travel. They want to extend the experience
of their travellers into central London. However you dress up
the Crossrail trains, with their high capacity layout and so on,
you are not going to achieve that for them.
8093. For the members of the Committee who will
have been on the Heathrow Express, is there anything which corresponds,
for example, to the first-class compartments on the Heathrow Express
to be proposed for Crossrail?
(Mr Berryman) No, there is nothing at all like that. We are
anticipating longitudinal seats, very similar to a District Line
train. I want to emphasise that Crossrail is a very high capacity
railway. The numbers of passengers who will be carried are very,
very substantial, and it will not be designed to give that feel
of luxury which the Heathrow Express endeavours to achieve.
8094. I think BAA is scheduled to appear next
week if your Lordships have more questions about the arrangements.
(Mr Berryman) I wonder if we could blow-up this section of
the slide, please.
Going from the western side to the south-east sector, what we
propose to do here is to put in new tracks between the lines which
go out to Dartford. You can see the lines which go out to Dartford
are actually shown dotted black there; and the new Crossrail track
lines are red. The idea is that trains coming from London can
allow a cross-platform interchange from platform 3 to platform
4, there on that plan, and that trains would then go forward into
these sidings where it would turn around and come back to platform
2, where it would be able to pick up cross-platform interchanges
from the existing south-east lines. That is basically the only
work we are doing. When the works are finished there will be no
operational impact on the south-east trains; they will run just
as they do now. This is the site of the station at Abbey Wood
and that will become wider with the existing tracks on the outside
and the Crossrail tracks on the inside.
On the north-eastern section Crossrail trains will run on the
Great Eastern. In doing so we will share tracks with other trains
between Shenfield and Stratford. Here the slow lines are known
as the E for electric lines. All of the lines are electric. This
is just to confuse the innocent. Here is a diagram showing the
tracks which are there.
The top part is the existing layout; the bottom part is the new
layout. You can see that the works are around Shenfield, which
is here (indicating) and around the sidings here (indicating);
but, generally speaking, there is not very much work that we are
doing on the east side of London. There may be some times of day
when Crossrail tram trains actually use the fast lines. The Crossrail
trains normally run on this pair of blue lines but at some times
of the day, late in the evening, after ten o'clock, I think, and
at weekends, they could use the fast lines. At certain times of
the day that railway goes to a two-track railway. That is to allow
maintenance on the other pair of tracks. Either the fast lines
are used or the E lines are used and all trains are routed over
that pair of tracks. That arrangement is exactly that which rules
at the present time. There are also likely to be times of disruption
during the operating of the rail network, as there are now when
equipment fails and something goes wrong. We hope that they will
be very much reduced from those which are experienced now, particularly
on the Great Western; but, when that happens, Crossrail trains
may be needed to be routed on to the fast lines. Sometimes other
slow line traffic may be required to run on to the fast lines
as well. Obviously when that happens it causes some delay, either
to the fast line trains or to the slow line trains. Network Rail,
who will be the infrastructure operator, will determine the priority
for that traffic and the way in which service is to be recovered
or brought back to normal running. I should stress that Crossrail
will get exactly the same treatment as any other train operator
on the route, so there is no particular priority accorded to Crossrail,
other than that which exists already with the suburban services
which run on these lines now. Perhaps I did not make it clear
earlier on, one of the points here is that Crossrail will subsume
the existing suburban services to a large extent. On the eastern
side, from Shenfield, all of the inner suburban services will
be taken over by Crossrail.
8095. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: North of the
(Mr Berryman) From Shenfield, my Lord, on the Great Eastern
Main Line; not every line but just that particular line. I will
say a few words about depots now. I hesitate to correct learned
8096. MR ELVIN: I am sorry; I was going
to ask you to correct me.
(Mr Berryman) In fact the agreement, which we are in the
advance stage of negotiating with ESW, involves us acquiring the
whole of their existing site at Old Oak Common. Here is a picture
It is a large site bounded there. It is to the north of the Great
Western Main Line site, and that in turn is to the north of the
Heathrow Express depot and sidings. All of those operators will
need access into the depot; and we are providing a dedicated pair
of tracks which will allow our trains to get in without conflict
with them. Inevitably there will be some interaction between the
operators on this very, very large site. I should point out, on
the other side of the railway is the North Pole site which was,
until recently, used by the Eurostar, but they have now moved
to another site. On the other side of London we are proposing
stabling at Gidea Park, and here is an aerial photograph of it.
There is existing stabling sidings here; we will be expanding
those somewhat. We are also proposing to stable some trains at
Ilford by modifying the existing depot. That depot will be shared
with Bombardier, the train manufacturer and maintainer, and with
the East Anglia services, the franchisee. Again, there will be
some interaction between operators but all, we think, within manageable
proportions. I would like to say a few words now about freight.
Both the Great Western Main Line and the Great Eastern Main Line
are used by freight trains. They already cross over London from
east to west. This diagram is intended to show how they go.
The Crossrail line there is shown in blue, and there are existing
lines, called the North London line, which is this one here (indicating),
and the Gospel Oak to Barking line, which is this one here (indicating),
which provide some link between railway lines to the east and
west of London. Those links are heavily used by freight trains.
Most of the freight trains from the east side of London are in
transit from either the Haven Ports of Felixstowe and Harwich
to points north, or from Tilbury and new ports on the Thames again
to points north; this map just shows where those main flows go.
There are some significant flows up to the Midlands and to the
north-west and to Scotland as well. There is another route from
the Haven Ports, the Haven Ports are around here, which goes cross-country,
which is sometimes referred to as the "Felixstowe to Nuneaton
route", and that may be mentioned at some point by petitioners.
The trains coming from the Haven Ports, Felixstowe and Harwich,
tend to come along the fast lines into London, rather than the
slow lines. Freight trains tend to use the slow lines rather than
the fast lines, but this is an exception where trains coming in
this direction tend to use the fast lines because the electric
lines, or the slow lines, crossover onto the wrong side of the
layout when you get towards Stratford. Those freight trains would
tend to run down the Main Line through Forest Gate and then on
the right side of the network to get a way up into the north London
line which takes you across London; that was the purple line in
the previous slide.
If they were to use the electric lines they would come down here
and then have to crossover the whole layout at Stratford; and
crossing over layouts is a big issue in operating railways. It
is something we try to minimise as far as possible. Some freight
trains going in the other direction do use the lines which will
be shared with Crossrail; they go round this line here and then
they go onto the E lines here; but some of them also use the fast
Main Lines. Trains coming up from Tilbury and Shellhaven currently
have to go across here on the orange line and then cross over
the whole layout at Stratford; and that is a major problem for
the operation of the railway. There is an existing line which
is called variously the Gospel Oak to Barking line and the Tottenham
and Hampstead line which provides an alternative route. Under
an announcement made July last year in the Transport Innovation
Fund this line is to be upgraded to provide capacity for physically
larger trains and also for more frequent trains. That work, we
understand, is progressing. On the western side of London a high
proportion of the traffic is actually stone or building materials
coming from the Mendips and other parts of the West Country. It
is aggregate and it either comes into terminals which are situated
along the relief lines, and I am sure you will be hearing some
more about that from EWS, or it goes into this depot here at Acton
From Acton Yard the trains are split into smaller units which
are then moved into different freight terminals all around London,
and on different lines.
8097. CHAIRMAN: Those are the piles of
aggregate that you see from the mainline train?
(Mr Berryman) They are, my Lord. This is the most substantial
pile, which appears to have a tree growing out of it when this
photograph was taken. I think that is what Network Rail call the
"virtual quarry", where they bring in tonnes and tonnes
and tonnes of ballast which is going to be used for the railway
and then they can come and collect it whenever they need it. I
think, from my understanding, with most of the aggregate from
here, the trains are split and sent to different terminals to
8098. I thought I would say a bit about infrastructure
There are a couple of points about the works that we need to do.
We are planning to intensify services, particularly in the peaks.
Some additional infrastructure may be required to deal with that
intensification, and here is a chart showing all the bits of work
for which we have taken powers in the Bill. Whether these will
actually all be needed is a moot point but these are the ones
we have taken powers for. Quite a lot of these works would not
be directly used by Crossrail; they will be used by other people
who we are trying to move out of the way to make room for Crossrail.
Going through them in detail, and there are far more in the west
than there are in the east, in the east the main works are here
at Shenfield, where there will be some remodelling to provide
an additional platform, because we will be running 12 trains an
hour there during the peak, which will need to turn round, so
we are providing additional space for them to turn round.
8099. The next slide, please.
Here is an aerial photograph of Shenfield. The new track will
be provided here so that this platform, which is currently just
a side platform, will become a bay platform with tracks on both
sides. The layout around here will also be resolved to allow for
easier passage for trains which are not stopping at Shenfield.
We will also be modifying the sidings at Ilford and Gidea Park,
which I spoke about earlier in connection with the depots. For
most of the stations we will be extending the platforms. We have
already discussed Maryland at some length, when we dealt with
the PRM accessibility. Maryland is a difficult station to extend
because it has got bridges at each end, one there and one there.
As a result of that, we have agreed with HMRI that we can use
selective door opening; the whole length of the train is not accommodated
at the platform so only the doors which are at the platform open.
Pudding Mill Lane, which is on the Great Eastern but coming in
towards Stratford, the layout here isthis is an express
training probably coming from Norwich.
You have also got the Docklands Light Railway, where you can see
a train here. We will be moving the Docklands Light Railway so
that the station on the Docklands Light Railway moves to the south
by about 60 metres, and in the space between the Docklands Light
Railway and the mainline we will construct our tunnel portal,
and that is where the trains will enter the Crossrail tunnels.
I have got some descriptions of the other works and some photographs.
I will go through them fairly quickly, unless you have any particular
questionsand please feel free to interrupt me at any time
1 Crossrail Ref: P55, Single Line Diagram-Custom House
to Abbey Wood (LINEWD-XR7-001) Back
Crossrail Ref: P55, Aerial view of Abbey Wood (LINEWD-XR7-002) Back
Crossrail Ref: P55, Single Line Diagram-Stratford to Shenfield-Sheet
3 of 3 (LINEWD-XR7-003) Back
Crossrail Ref: P55, Old Oak Common-Oblique view looking east
Crossrail Ref: P55, Aerial view of Gidea Park (LINEWD-XR7-006) Back
Crossrail Ref: P55, Cross London Freight Routes (LINEWD-XR7-008) Back
Crossrail Ref: P55, Current freight flows from Shell Haven and
Tilbury (LINEWD-XR7-009) Back
Crossrail Ref: P55, Forest Gate-routes do not conflict (LINEWD-XR7-010) Back
Crossrail Ref: P55, Aerial view of Acton Yard (LINEWD-XR7-011) Back
Crossrail Ref: P55, Major works on the surface railway (LINEWD-XR7-023) Back
Crossrail Ref: P55, Aerial view of Shenfield Station (LINEWD-XR7-025) Back
Crossrail Ref: P55, Aerial view of Maryland Station (LINEWD-XR7-026) Back
Crossrail Ref: P55, Aerial view of Pudding Mill Lane (LINEWD-XR7-027) Back