Examination of Witnesses (Questions 8500
- 8519)
8500. CHAIRMAN: I think that is very
well cleared up. Thank you very much.
8501. MR EVANS: My Lords, we had, before
I introduced some unnecessary confusion there, finished our evidence.
I just wonder if it is worth Mr Steel reminding us of the points
that he made that were not related to that clause, if your Lordships
would find that helpful.
(Mr Steel) In summary, I would just say that ATOC and its
members support the Bill and there are still a few issues regarding
the impacts as a result of construction which I think we have
more or less resolved and, now that the Office of the Rail Regulator
has given its decision, we expect the Government to honour its
commitments by bringing forward the amendments it says it will
and include them in the Bill. What we want to see now is greater
clarity on the decision regarding construction in line with the
assurances given over the last couple of days and particularly
over the last couple of hours.
8502. MR EVANS: My Lords, I have no further
questions.
8503. CHAIRMAN: Any points, Mr Elvin?
8504. MR ELVIN: No.
The witness withdrew
8505. MR EVANS: My Lords, I have just
a brief closing. As many of the points that were originally raised
by ATOC in its Petition have now been dealt with or, we understand,
soon will be dealt with, and thank you for your kind invitation
to be able to write to you on those points once we have received
the final response from the Department, the only remaining point
that Mr Steel mentioned was a general assurance in relation to
construction and the reasonable endeavours being used to ensure
that sidings and depots and the like are available. There is a
prospect of the franchised passenger operators being harmed by
the Bill if this does not happen as the construction will have
major impacts on their operations. There is, we believe, the prospect
of this being resolved through the standard industry processes,
as long as those are adopted. However, as we have heard from Mr
Berryman in relation to the DLR, there is only a certain amount
of time that a railway can go without access to its depots and
we would be looking for an assurance from the Promoters that,
whilst their good intentions and their words have been welcome
so far, the difficulty is that the people who come to construct
the railway will be looking at the firm undertakings and assurances
that have been given and working to those and they will, quite
rightly, take a different view about the status of kind words
that have been given outside of that process, so we are looking
for you, my Lords, to require the Promoters to give an assurance
that they will use reasonable endeavours to make sure that the
affected train operators have access to depots or alternative
access.
8506. CHAIRMAN: Are you likely to get
an agreement on this?
8507. MR EVANS: It is a very general
assurance which chimes with many of the things which have been
said by the Promoters so far.
8508. MR ELVIN: Well, I think assurances
have been given with regard to some specific depots, but this
is largely a matter to be dealt with through the industry mechanisms
and through the Regulator and Network Rail. Certainly substantial
progress has been made dealing with those matters, but I do not
think it is properly the subject of an assurance by me to the
Committee on behalf of the Promoters as it is certainly being
dealt with through the normal mechanisms.
8509. CHAIRMAN: Are we going to get it
in time for the Committee to see the agreed undertaking for this
one?
8510. MR ELVIN: To be fair, this is the
first time it has been raised with regard to the majority. There
will be one for First Great Western in relation to Old Oak which
we can probably show the Committee in due course. Today was really
the first time this has been asked for formally, despite the fact
that we had a meeting the other day and I asked if there was anything
else that was going to be raised before the Committee. However,
we will see if there is anything we can do. I cannot make any
promises because it has only just been raised this afternoon.
8511. CHAIRMAN: I think we ought to try
and get the Register of Undertakings and Assurances complete before
we finish our proceedings.
8512. MR ELVIN: That is subject to it
having just been raised this afternoon whether or not I am in
a position to make any offers other than those which are taking
place through normal industry processes. I do not imagine it is
going to be a matter I can give any specific assurances to the
Committee on. It simply is, as has been suggested by ATOC, that
we are content to use the normal processes through Network Rail
and the Rail Regulator.
8513. CHAIRMAN: But there are industry
procedures, are there not?
8514. MR ELVIN: Yes, indeed, hence our
decision to go with the access option and to modify the Bill powers.
8515. CHAIRMAN: But you had better tell
us in due time whether you have succeeded in agreeing some form
of words or whether it is going to be left to the industry processes.
8516. MR ELVIN: I will ask those sitting
behind me to take a note of that and we will do that if further
information becomes available.
8517. MR EVANS: My Lords, the industry
processes do give us considerable comfort because we know, and
understand, how the ORR will act under those and also how Network
Rail ought to act under those, so it is the processes and the
proposals that the Promoter brings forward through that which
are the final part of that jigsaw. I understand that the content
of these assurances has been raised in general terms throughout
the ongoing discussions, but there are matters that have arisen
recently and been brought forward from the Promoter's side, although
from the other hat, as it were, on the Promoter's side, for example,
the Plumstead letter, which was referred to at the very beginning
of today's session which seems a while ago now, related to some
additional stabling that may be required at Plumstead as a result
of the Department for Transport's aspirations for Thameslink,
but it is now clear that that is not entirely compatible with
the Department for Transport's aspirations for Crossrail and that
is why we have framed this assurance in the general terms that
we have in the hope that reasonable endeavours will be applied,
and that is really the bare minimum that anyone could ask for.
8518. CHAIRMAN: I do not think we want
this left as a loose end and we would like to make sure that it
is tied up before the proceedings in front of this Committee are
concluded.
8519. MR EVANS: I quite understand, my
Lord.
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