Examination of Witnesses (Questions 9080
9080. Those matters in terms of possessions
and the like and the impact of other works by other operators
is something you have to live with on an everyday basis in the
rail industry, is it not?
(Ms Durham) Yes, we do, but obviously
there are different levels of disruption and all we are asking
is that the disruption is minimised.
9081. And there are industry processes for managing
that disruption, are there not? The Network Code provides the
basis upon which the ORR manages such disruptions.
(Ms Durham) It does.
9082. And that is how this is to be dealt with,
is it not? Under the Network Code, in the same way as other projects
are handled, the ORR will take an objective view and balance the
various interests when looking at the issue of possessions under
the Network Code?
(Ms Durham) That is unless you invoke
number 41 in the Crossrail Bill.
9083. Well, I am not going to debate that with
you because you are not a lawyer.
(Ms Durham) I am not a lawyer, but I did
hear what you were saying earlier, that that was a way of actually
overriding the possession proposals.
9084. That is not what I said earlier, you misunderstood
that, Ms Durham, but, forgive me, I will not go over that with
you and I will make further submissions on it as is necessary,
but we are in agreement that the issues of possessions and disruption
are matters which are managed under the Network Code and that
is what is proposed for Crossrail now, is it not?
(Ms Durham) That is correct.
9085. The only addition is the Olympic duty
to make sure that the ORR has the additional duty to take into
account facilitating Crossrail construction, not overriding, but
just take it into account when weighing the various other considerations
under the Railways Act. I do not assume that that is controversial
so far as you are concerned?
(Ms Durham) No, if the clauses are the
same as the Olympic clauses, then we are happy with that.
9086. MR ELVIN: Thank you very much.
Re-examined by LORD
9087. LORD BERKELEY: My Lord Chairman,
perhaps I could re-examine Ms Durham on the one issue, the last
one about clause 41. I am not a lawyer either, but I certainly
understood what Mr Elvin said about the need for clause 41 which
was to direct
9088. CHAIRMAN: I am not sure that we
have actually got to the bottom of clause 41 yet. I think we are
going to have it, but am I not right in saying that you are going
to come back tomorrow?
9089. LORD BERKELEY: I was going to come
back on what, I think, my Lord Chairman, is going to be Thursday
now, or whichever date it is. I would just ask Ms Durham to confirm
that the reason that she has asked for these various things on
that slide is at least in part because clause 41 is still there.
Is that your view, Ms Durham?
9090. CHAIRMAN: Well, I do not think
that she can possibly answer that question; it is purely a matter
9091. LORD BERKELEY: Thank you, my Lord
Chairman. Thank you, Ms Durham.
Examined by THE
9092. LORD SNAPE: On this slide we have
up at the moment, the first line, "only close 2 out of the
4 rail lines on each route at any time", I seemed to get
the inference from what you were saying that you felt that, as
two of the lines would be, to use your words, "owned by Transport
for London", there might be a much greater problem of access
for freight in the event of the other two lines being closed.
Was that your intention?
That is correct. These four lines exist now and they are all owned
by Network Rail and, as I say, Network Rail manage it in a way
that two are always open. I would be gravely concerned if they
were managed by two separate companies. Firstly, we would have
to try and negotiate between the two and I do not know how it
9093. LORD SNAPE: Sure, I understand.
I thought Mr Elvin had indicated, however, in his last exchange
with you that that was not the case.
9094. MR ELVIN: My Lord, can I say that
Transport for London will not be the infrastructure manager for
the Gospel Oak-Barking lines
9095. LORD SNAPE: No, that is not what
we are talking about.
9096. MR ELVIN: Sorry, Great Western,
I do apologise.
9097. LORD SNAPE: No, it is not Great
9098. MR ELVIN: I am sorry, I have at
least 15 people whispering different things in my ear!
9099. LORD SNAPE: Well, listen to me
and I will whisper it to you! Of the four lines, two of which
will form the Crossrail tracks once Crossrail is completed, I
think Ms Durham's point is that, if TfL have sole responsibility
for the Crossrail lines, it would be difficult, again to paraphrase
it, for freight to use it in the event of the other two lines