Examination of Witnesses (Questions 9600
- 9619)
9600. But I thought Crossrail was predicated
on the basis of known growth in passengers. I find it totally
confusing what is happening at Heathrow, frankly, because it is
difficult to identify who actually does the work, who comes from
where and what they want and what is the expansion in the future,
if we are going back to the exercise we had last week. When I
hear you run through slide 6, I think, "What is in it?"
(Mr Berryman) What is in it for Crossrail?
9601. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Yes,
for Crossrail.
9602. MR ELVIN: Can you just run through
some of the other benefits, Mr Berryman?
9603. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: I can
see with it running underneath London what the benefit is there,
but, if everybody has got to change from there and then on to
Crossrail at Paddington and then it creeps out to Heathrow and
is replacing a slow-running train and it is not going to Terminal
5, I think, "What the hell is it all about?"
(Mr Berryman) What it is allowing us to do is to use paths
which exist on the line not just to pick up passengers from Heathrow,
but to pick up from the intermediate stations as well.
9604. Which is what Connect is doing at the
moment, is it not?
(Mr Berryman) That is what Connect is doing at the moment,
but, if you think about a passenger, say, who is getting on at
Southall who works in the City or works in Canary Wharf, then
they will use that train as well as people getting on at Heathrow,
so the reason for serving Heathrow is actually to provide extra
trains on the network as well as to serve Heathrow. It is not
just purely relying on picking people up at Heathrow Airport and
taking them somewhere or delivering them to Heathrow Airport.
It relies on being part of the network.
9605. MR ELVIN: Mr Berryman, Crossrail
services do not start at Paddington, do they?
(Mr Berryman) Crossrail services will not start at Paddington,
they will start obviously in east London.
9606. If you take the position of someone who
wants to get to or from Heathrow, say, from the City of London,
what would their comparative position be?
(Mr Berryman) Well, the total journey time from the centre
of London to Heathrow by Crossrail will be quicker than you would
achieve by changing at Paddington, not very much quicker, but
it will be quicker.
9607. It is quicker by river, is it not?
(Mr Berryman) Well, the river does not go to Heathrow!
9608. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: It
is not very far off!
9609. MR ELVIN: I think a river diversion
of the Thames may be a little more ambitious than a western link!
Mr Berryman, for the benefit of those who are looking for business
arrangements in the City or in Canary Wharf, is the advantage
of not having to change one that is considered?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, there is obviously an advantage in not
having to change at Paddington, particularly if you have got bags
and so on, and we will expect people to benefit from that. It
is worth bearing in mind that places like Canary Wharf are not
just significant business centres, they are also very substantial
residential centres, so people who live there will want to go
to Heathrow as well.
9610. In terms of journey times, the only direct
service from central London to Heathrow is via the Piccadilly
Line?
(Mr Berryman) That is correct, yes.
9611. How is the journey time, say, if you do
not want to change or the only change you want to do is in central
London? If you do not want to change at Paddington and you want
to go direct, what would the comparative journey times be between
the Piccadilly Line and Crossrail?
(Mr Berryman) There is not a direct comparison, but if you
say from the Tottenham Court Road/Covent Garden area, that is
where the two lines are reasonably close to each other, it will
just be very slightly more than half the time to get there by
Crossrail compared to going by the Piccadilly Line.
9612. CHAIRMAN: Is the Piccadilly Line
going to Terminal 5?
(Mr Berryman) The Piccadilly Line does go to Terminal 5 and
Terminal 4.
9613. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Of
course you cannot with Crossrail, you cannot get to Terminal 5.
(Mr Berryman) Well, the arrangements for the Underground
access are even more complicated than the arrangements for Crossrail.
If we can put up the slide again which shows the location of the
terminals, what actually happens is that there is a loop line,
this is the Piccadilly Line, and there is a loop line which goes
to Terminal 4, it loops more or less on the similar track to this
line, back through the central area terminals to Hatton Cross
and, until Terminal 5 opened, all the Piccadilly Line trains that
were going to Heathrow went round that loop, so that was why I
was saying that it is impossible to catch, or very difficult to
catch, the Underground from the central area terminals to go back
here (indicating). Now, clearly that would not work with Terminal
5, so that route cannot serve Terminal 4 and Terminal 5, so they
put another line in from the central area terminals to Terminal
5, so now what will happen is that some Piccadilly Line trains
will go round that loop, serve Terminal 4 and the central area
and some Piccadilly Line trains will come through the central
area and then go to Terminal 5.
9614. MR ELVIN: So there will be another
destination to go up on the destination indicator boards?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, there are effectively two different branches
and, if you catch the Piccadilly Line now, it will tell you which
terminal the train is going to.
9615. LORD SNAPE: But why are Underground
passengers then considered to be more intelligent than people
using the overground?
(Mr Berryman) Actually I understand that they are not!
9616. You have just explained to us that the
reason why Heathrow Connect and Heathrow Express do not serve
both terminals is because of confusion to passengers. The Underground
does serve both and presumably the passengers are equally confused
or perhaps they are not.
(Mr Berryman) Apparently they are, my Lord.
9617. MR ELVIN: So just to come back
to the benefits, Mr Berryman, you have explained better journey
times, the lack of the need to go on to a Heathrow service at
Paddington and that there are extra destinations to be served
because Crossrail will go beyond Paddington and will serve other
areas further to the east. Are there any other benefits which
come to mind?
(Mr Berryman) Well, there will also be what we talked about
before which is the connection at Hayes & Harlington to allow
people to change to go back into the airport which is only a half-hourly
connection at the moment and will become a 15-minute connection,
and BAA have recently constructed a new PRM-accessible footbridge
to allow for that change to take place.
9618. I meant to add that there is an increase
in frequency of service as well with Crossrail.
(Mr Berryman) Indeed there would be. The Heathrow Connect
is half-hourly and this would bring it to quarter-hourly, yes.
9619. LORD SNAPE: If you go back to the
alternative, Air Track, what would be the time saving of changing
at Reading and using Air Track to the airport compared to staying
on to Paddington and coming back on the Heathrow Express?
(Mr Berryman) That is a very difficult question to answer
at this stage, my Lord. It depends how long you had to wait for
a train at Reading fundamentally.
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