Examination of Witnesses (Questions 13000
- 13019)
13000. BARONESS FOOKES: So he would be
his own expert in many respects?
(Mr Berryman) In some respects, my Lady, but he would have
the capacity to call on expert advice, professional advice, if
needed.
13001. MS LIEVEN: Just staying on the
Complaints Commissioner for a moment, as far as you are aware,
through talking to people involved in the project, did that system
work well on the Channel Tunnel Rail Link project which has just
been completed?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, it appeared to work very well. There was
only one significant issue which has already been raised in front
of this House and that was the issue about working hours at King's
Cross, and that was rather a complex issue, but that was the only
area where there was any significant difficulty at all and that
matter was ultimately solved by, amongst other things, setting
up a liaison panel.
13002. I want to then turn to the role of local
authorities. Just explain to us, if you would, when you come forward
with specific proposals for Bond Street Station, where the lorry
routes are going to go, or the particular hours that are needed
and if there is any change to the hours, matters like that, will
the local authority be involved in those matters?
(Mr Berryman) The local authority will indeed be involved
in them. It is set out on the face of the Bill that those matters
need the approval of the local authority and that will obviously
be the case. Formally it will be for the local authority to consult
residents and so on. I think we have already said in connection
with the Paddington area that where there are special issues which
might require consultation with the public, we are prepared to
circulate documents to appropriate public groups and residents'
groups and people of that sort at the same time as we submit them
to the Council.
13003. And will it be open to the Council to
consult more widely with local residents on matters such as section
60 applications if they think it is appropriate on the facts of
the particular case?
(Mr Berryman) Yes it will and we would expect them to do
that.
13004. So then turning to Mr Goodman's proposal,
it is not entirely clear to me precisely what the proposal is
but let us assume it is in this shape that there will be some
kind of independent advocacy expert body that local residents
can go to and say: "We do not like 24-hour working at Bond
Street for ten days; please advise us whether we can stop it,"
what kind of problems do you envisage with that?
(Mr Berryman) We would envisage, and I think I have given
several bits of evidence on this point, that the appropriate body
to do that would be the local authority, they would provide the
independent third party advice, they have the technical expertise
to deal with the impacts in the local area and the local knowledge
which is necessary. I think if there were to be another body,
we would be back into the situation which we described in connection
with the Corporation of London at the Billingsgate Fish Market
where we have been trying to get approval from two separate bodies,
and that becomes very, very difficult to do. It is much better
if we have an authority, in this case the local authority, who
is the responsible body for ensuring that all that kind of thing
is co-ordinated and we have a single channel of approval for all
the matters that we deal with.
13005. CHAIRMAN: And they have got statutory
duties to do it anyway, have they not?
(Mr Berryman) Indeed they have, my Lord.
13006. MS LIEVEN: Thank you. Now, can
we move on to a related issue—
13007. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Ordinary
people—anybody who travels on the Underground in the morning
will know that conditions often are quite intolerable in the rush
hour.
(Mr Berryman) Indeed.
13008. LORD SNAPE: Not just in the morning!
13009. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: When
do ordinary people have a right to complain under European legislation
about the conditions, or do they have a right?
(Mr Berryman) I am afraid you are well outside my area of
expertise there, my Lord. I have no more knowledge than you on
that matter and it is something which I have often wondered about
myself, indeed with a view to making such a complaint.
13010. It brings me to the point that Crossrail
is projected to ease the burden that people are suffering, particularly
in the central area with the projected growth in passengers on
the Underground, but, if there is a delay in finishing this project,
who is going to be held responsible for it and accountable to
the ordinary people?
(Mr Berryman) Well, at the end of the day, my Lord, I assume
it is a government matter because they are held accountable for
just about everything, as far as I can make out.
13011. LORD SNAPE: As they are likely
to find out shortly!
(Mr Berryman) So I think that that is the sort of matter
which is at the government level really.
13012. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: This
may seem well wide of what we are dealing with this morning, but
I am just anxious in my head to establish a balance about the
needs and interests of ordinary people and here we are being asked
to set up an additional body, an additional body, to protect the
interests and I have got a good deal of sympathy. I live in Brighton
where they are proposing to put up a 42-storey building in the
marina in front of where I live and this flies in the face of
a previous Private Member's Bill which limited any development
to the height of the cliff, but nonetheless, it is going ahead,
so I have a good deal of sympathy with what the residents are
seeking to achieve here. The balance is the need for additional
housing, social housing particularly, and there is a balance here
and I am not quite sure, when we are starting to explore the prospects
of if we responded to the suggestion that there should be a further
independent expert, where the rights of the ordinary citizen who
travels on the Underground come in and whether they have an opportunity
of coming in to express a view.
(Mr Berryman) Well, my Lord, there are an awful lot of them
and, if they came in here, it would be a difficult situation,
I am sure! I would imagine that most of the people who travel
on the Underground get pretty fed up with the overcrowding on
it and would be anxious that something is done to relieve that
overcrowding, and the Crossrail project is one of those things
which can provide that relief.
13013. So there is no formal mechanism?
(Mr Berryman) There is no formal mechanism, my Lord. I have
been involved in many projects in my career and it is always the
case that the beneficiaries do not really have a way of expressing
their view, but the people who are going to be affected always
express their view very strongly.
13014. BARONESS FOOKES: Mr Berryman,
going back to the role of your independent ombudsman, I think
you described him as—
(Mr Berryman) Ombudsman-like, my Lady.
13015. BARONESS FOOKES: Yes, ombudsman-like
character. If he has a position of authority and of knowledge,
would he not be able informally, if not formally, to put considerable
pressure on local authorities who were not carrying out their
duties as they should?
(Mr Berryman) I think the intention of the role is to put
pressure informally or otherwise on the nominated undertaker,
which we expect to be us, but I am sure that that could be a part
of his role. We know from the Channel Tunnel experience that Professor
Kennerly, who was the necessary official, had a very good working
relationship with all the local authorities that the Channel Tunnel
Rail Link went through and he was able, in an informal way as
you have described, to expedite and help with some of those matters.
13016. So in fact it would almost be a dual
role because he would be able to bring pressure or at least fruitful
discussions with whoever is the contractor and with the local
authorities who are a part of this?
(Mr Berryman) That is right, but I think the formal role
would be the first part of that. They would no doubt have, as
in most aspects of life, a formal role and an informal role and
I would imagine that that would be part of the informal role.
13017. Well, I am being pragmatic and I do not
care which way it comes as long as the results are there.
(Mr Berryman) Quite so.
13018. MS LIEVEN: Just staying on Lady
Fookes' point, if there was a local authority that was really
dragging its feet and not doing its duty by its local residents
in respect of some aspects of the Crossrail project, is that a
matter—I do not know whether you are going to be able to
answer this—which the Local Government Ombudsman himself
could deal with, not just our commissioner, but would it be a
matter for the Local Government Ombudsman?
(Mr Berryman) Well, if it was sufficient, but this is an
area which is well outside my area of expertise and I just know
as a person who lives in the country that yes, that would be my
understanding anyway. You will know more than I on that.
13019. Yes, I am afraid I am using you as a
mechanism for putting it in as evidence. Just on the specifics
here, we have heard from Mr Goodman, speaking on behalf primarily
of the Residents' Association of Mayfair, about a lack of faith
in their local authority, which is Westminster City Council. Now,
I know from the evidence you have already given that you have
had a very great deal of involvement with, discussion with and
exposure to Westminster City Council in respect of the Crossrail
project. Has that experience led you to believe that they would
be dilatory in the protection of local residents' interests in
respect of the Crossrail project?
(Mr Berryman) On the contrary, I have been very impressed
with the professional competence and the diligence of the Tower
Hamlets officers that we deal with in—
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