Examination of Witnesses (Questions 13020
- 13039)
13020. Sorry, Westminster, Mr Berryman.
(Mr Berryman) Westminster?
13021. Yes, that is why I put it in that way.
You may have issues with Westminster officers which I am not going
to touch upon, but, in terms of the level of effort they put in
to protect local residents' interests, do you have any doubts
that they will do their utmost to protect those interests?
(Mr Berryman) None at all, particularly in the case of Westminster.
13022. Can we move on to general environmental
protection issues and I just want to clarify something that I
think the Lord Chairman raised earlier. Can you just explain to
the Committee what the environmental minimum requirements are
and where they are set out?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, the environmental minimum requirements—
13023. The EMRs.
(Mr Berryman)— the EMRs, as they are called for short,
are those provisions which the people building the works are expected
to comply with. The overwhelming majority of them are contained
in the Code of Construction Practice and the Code of Construction
Practice will form part of all the works contracts which are let
for the construction of the works. The relationship, as you probably
realise, will be that the Secretary of State will appoint the
nominated undertaker and the nominated undertaker will appoint
the works contractors who do the works. The contract between the
nominated undertaker and the works contractors will include, as
part of the documentation, the Code of Construction Practice which
sets out things like hours of working, noise procedures, dust
management, all that sort of thing, and they will be contractually
obliged to comply with those conditions.
13024. CHAIRMAN: Who enforces that?
(Mr Berryman) The nominated undertaker, my Lord, in the first
instance.
13025. Is he on the end of the helpline?
(Mr Berryman) The nominated undertaker will be on the end
of the helpline, my Lord.
13026. MS LIEVEN: And then, if the nominated
undertaker does not do his duties, the Secretary of State. Is
that right?
(Mr Berryman) That is right, but I think it is quite unlikely
that the Secretary of State would be on the end of the helpline!
13027. I appreciate that the Secretary of State,
whoever he or she may be, at relevant times may not be on the
end of the helpline, but ultimately in terms of enforcement the
line of responsibility goes back to the Secretary of State?
(Mr Berryman) Although if he or she were, it would probably
expedite action rather more!
13028. Maybe it should be a provision that for
one day he or she is required to do so! I will leave that in the
hands of the Committee.
13029. LORD SNAPE: There is no inference
there, Ms Lieven, that the politicians in this or any other government
are out of touch with public opinion!
13030. MS LIEVEN: But I did not say that
on instructions, I would rapidly say! So far as the Code of Construction
Practice is concerned, Mr Berryman, I think the most recent draft
which is very close to being the final draft is in the information
papers at D1. Is that right?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, I think that is right.
13031. So it is on the net and it is fully available
to the public to see? Is that right?
(Mr Berryman) That is correct, yes, and, as you say, it is
very close to being agreed by all the local authorities. This
is a matter which comes before the Planning Forum where all the
local authorities get together.
13032. That is the next topic I just want to
touch on. Have the local authorities been involved in the drawing
up of the Code of Construction Practice and the other documents
which form the EMRs?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, they have. They have been
consulted all the way through and they have agreed the form that
they should take and the details as well. I would just like to
make a point in answer to my Lord Chairman's remarks earlier.
Each local authority has taken responsibility for one aspect of
the works but they have to secure the agreement of all their colleagues
on that aspect. One authority has led the negotiation but at the
same time has been seeking and gaining the agreement of all their
colleague local authorities before agreeing to the actual wording
that is put forward.
13033. We have talked a little bit about Westminster,
but so far as Tower Hamlets are concerned, I think it is right
that they were the lead authority on construction noise?
(Mr Berryman) To be honest I cannot remember, but they were
the lead authority on one of the major issues, yes.
13034. CHAIRMAN: I thought it was Havering.
13035. MS LIEVEN: Havering were fixed
plant noise, that is operational vents and things like that, Tower
Hamlets were the actual construction noise and Westminster were
working hours. Let us just deal with one aspect of the EMRs, which
is the one that the Society and the Mayfair residents this morning
have referred to specifically. Can I have put up this extract
from the Network Rail Airdrie Bathgate Railway Environmental Statement?[5]
I just want to go through these two paragraphs and for you to
explain—it is 8.2 and 8.3—how they are dealt with
within the Crossrail scheme of things, but before we do that,
do you just want to touch on the degree to which in any event
this Airdrie railway is a relevant precedent for Crossrail?
(Mr Berryman) Actually, I am not all that familiar
with it. I understand it is mainly a surface railway. I am advised
by agents, who I think were acting for them as well, that it was
a surface railway.
13036. Let us deal with the two paragraphs just
to try and put this issue at rest. Paragraph 8.2 is entitled "Structure
damage assessments before construction of works". The Committee
can read it for themselves. It is a brief outline of a scheme
to deal with ground movement, settlement or heave. How does that
relate to the perhaps rather more detailed provisions that the
Crossrail project is setting out in respect of settlement issues?
(Mr Berryman) To all intents and purposes it is the same.
As you say quite rightly, it is a very much abridged version of
our Information Paper on the matter. I think the issues with a
tunnelled railway as opposed to a surface railway are much more
complicated and for that reason our Information Paper is much
more complicated, but the general principle is identical to those
provisions which we set down in our policy on this matter. Anyone
who has a settlement deed or even anyone who does not have a settlement
deed would still be entitled to the benefits similar to those
set out in paragraph 8.2 and indeed 8.3.
13037. Let us just look at 8.3, "Defects
surveys after construction of works. Contractors will properly
safeguard all buildings or other structures or erections that
might be at risk from the works, from harm, disturbance, or deterioration
prior to construction. Contractors will implement all agreed measures
required for the protection of all pipes, cables, sewers, railways
and other apparatus during the construction period." Is that
in substance any different from what we are proposing?
(Mr Berryman) No.
13038. Not just what we are proposing but what
we will be required to do, is that right?
(Mr Berryman) Indeed.
13039. I think the final issue that I need to
cover with you briefly is the Wigmore Street/Cavendish Square
alignment. First of all, I know that you are very keen to get
this on the record. So far as this conversation that was referred
to extensively in the House of Commons between Mr Schabas and
Mr Haste, who was then the Chief Executive of CTRL, about the
consideration of alternatives is concerned, do you just want to
explain so that it is on the record what was actually said as
you were there?
(Mr Berryman) Yes. Mr Schabas did some work for us in trying
to develop what he called the river scheme, the southern alignment.
It became very clear to us that there was not much hope that this
was ever going to be a viable proposition. We arranged a meeting
with Mr Schabas during the course of which Mr Haste said, in my
presence, of which I made a special note, "I don't have the
time or the money to look at alternatives which have no hope of
success," and that has been repeated by Mr Schabas several
times but missing off the last clause, which changes the meaning
of the words by 180 degrees.
5 Crossrail Ref: P80, Network Rail-Code of Construction
Practice-Construction of Airdrie Bathgate Railway and linked improvements
(SCN-20080508-004) Back
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