Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380-399)
Ms Eluned Morgan MEP
5 JUNE 2008
Q380 Lord James of Blackheath: You
have graced my question with a more technical answer than the
question itself anticipated because I was thinking more in terms
of an example I quoted to our friend from Greenpeace this morning,
that at the moment there are three gearboxes which are available
to use on a wind farm, one is like a Ferrari and the other two
are a couple of old Ford tour buses. If we got to the point where
we could wait until we had got the Ferrari standard gearbox available
for wind farms in sufficient numbers that could be used across
all projects then we would be leaving a far greater legacy for
posterity than we are going to get with what we have got at the
present moment. That seems to me to be a simple, straightforward
issue of jumping the gun on something which is not really as good
as it could be.
Ms Morgan: I think the time issue is
a real issue. I do not think we can afford the time. We are already
doing as much as we can in terms of cleaning up coal-fired power
stations, for example, and putting measures in place. If we are
not doing that, how are we going to get our energy. If what you
are saying is continue but let us clean up coal a bit while we
are waiting for this new technology to develop—
Q381 Lord James of Blackheath: Ms
Morgan, if you would accept the principle that at the moment we
have a twin agenda, one is reduction of carbon and the second
is we have to do something to be able to produce an alternative
source of fuel which is going to be competitive with what we are
having to pay per barrel to get the stuff out of wherever it is
coming from at the moment. If we end up using an incompetent system
like wind farms are going to have to be to a certain extent with
the wrong gearboxes and go ten years out into the future, we have
only replaced an expensive form of fuel with another expensive
form of fuel because we are not maximising the performance of
what we have invested in. You say we have not got time now but
we may look back and wish to God in ten years' time we had used
the time in a different way. I am not sure anybody is taking a
top-down view on this, which is a hugely critical issue for me.
Ms Morgan: This is like being on The
Apprentice! I understand your point, I just think we do not
have time. Biofuels is a great example where it is clear that
second generation biofuels will be better than first generation,
but can we afford to wait.
Chairman: Now we come to a very important
question with Lord Paul.
Q382 Lord Paul: The Guarantees of
Origin schemes, what role do they have and how can they help EU
members meet their targets?
Ms Morgan: I think they are going to
be difficult to use. I have been trying to work out how they would
work and I cannot pretend to understand the whole system. My understanding
is that the cheapest place to get renewable energy from is biomass
in Bulgaria. Why Bulgaria is simply going to say, "You come
in and do this instead of us", when their target is going
to be pretty high anyway, I just do not understand. I do not understand
why they would say, "Come on, Britain, you come and do it".
My guess is they will not be doing that until they have reached
their own target. I am not sure how that will work in practice.
I understand the logic behind it, but I do not think it will come
into play until very late towards 2020.
Q383 Lord Paul: I think in our earlier
sessions they felt it was a non-starter almost. Do you go that
far?
Ms Morgan: We have got to consider it
because the difference in price is quite substantial. If we can
use this flexibility instrument it would be useful for us in terms
of price and that would be useful to the consumer.
Q384 Lord Paul: Wind turbine technology,
is 45 years old. It is not something new, so do we need to wait
for this technology to develop further? 45 years is a long time.
Ms Morgan: It is a long time. Cars have
developed a huge amount over the years but the fundamental principles
are still the same. How long are you prepared to wait, it is a
real problem. I do not know the detail of how wind farm technology
works, I do not know how the generator works.
Q385 Lord Powell of Bayswater: Planning
permission probably takes longer than the technology!
Ms Morgan: Planning permission is a huge,
huge issue in the UK especially.
Q386 Chairman: Lord Paul indicated
that we had already received evidence from parliamentarians that
the Guarantees of Origin process (a) might not work, (b) might
not be appropriate and (c), if necessary, might come in late.
Could you just comment on the Commission's view because the Commission
and Parliament seem to be heading for a train crash.
Ms Morgan: We have not got into the detail
of the Guarantees of Origin yet, so I cannot tell you where the
Parliament is on this. I think they are trying to make it easier
for people. I understand what they are doing. The way they calculated
what the percentage should be for Member States did not take local
opportunities for exploiting resources into account, it took into
account a flat rate plus your GDP. There are different potentials
in different countries. They are pretty tough targets for all
Member States. My understanding is that Belgium and Luxembourg,
for example, have fairly tough targets that it will be very, very
difficult for them to meet unless they have some kind of trading
arrangement.
Chairman: Bilateral perhaps, even. That
was the implication this morning.
Q387 Lord Bradshaw: This is an area
where you have already declared your expertise.
Ms Morgan: Oh gosh, that was dangerous!
Q388 Lord Bradshaw: That is the free
market. I am really interested in the extent to which the unbundling
and distribution of supply is going on in Europe and whether,
as we were informed this morning, it looks as if the proposals
which have been put forward by the Commission are likely to be
blocked by the Council of Ministers.
Ms Morgan: This is why I have got to
rush back for the vote actually. It is pretty clear that the six
or seven Member States who are keen to block unbundling at any
cost are very, very active. It feels to me the majority are being
pushed around a little bit by that minority. Obviously there is
the Council meeting on Friday where we are expecting some decisions
on what will happen in relation to electricity and gas. On electricity,
the Parliament's position at the moment is that we want to see
full ownership on bundling, that is the Committee position. Whether
we can hold that in plenary is a different issue and whether we
can get two-thirds majority is, again, a different issue. I am
fairly confident that we can do that but, frankly, if the Council
does the deal on something that is less then it will be more difficult
for us to maintain that position.
Q389 Lord Bradshaw: Do you think
that unbundling is a key issue in getting grid access, putting
the supplier and the grid under the same umbrella, as it were?
Ms Morgan: I think it is essential. It
will make a huge difference. What is more, as the rapporteur for
the Electricity Directive, we have said very clearly that renewables
should have priority access onto the grids. The Commission were
not at all happy with us suggesting that, which is quite interesting
because in their own Renewables Directive they suggest that very
thing, so it is a very odd approach. The renewables lobby is very,
very keen on full ownership unbundling and they feel there are
examples across Europe where particularly smaller generators are
being blocked to the kind of access that they should be getting.
Q390 Lord Bradshaw: From what you
have just said you obviously believe that feed-in tariffs are
important.
Ms Morgan: They are very useful for micro-generation
in particular.
Q391 Lord Bradshaw: That is what
I meant.
Ms Morgan: Just look at what has happened
in Germany and you can see the development. I have one of the
biggest solar factories in my constituency in Wrexham and it will
be a great boost for them as well. There are real opportunities
if we go down the route of a feed-in tariff, but at the moment
the incentives are not there.
Q392 Lord Powell of Bayswater: My
recollection from the evidence we have received is that there
would be a considerable disruption cost if we were to switch to
that and there was some resistance from some of our witnesses
to the idea that we should move to feed-in tariffs.
Ms Morgan: I would need to know who your
witnesses were first.
Q393 Lord Powell of Bayswater: I
think mostly power companies.
Ms Morgan: That just says it all.
Lord Bradshaw: That is not surprising
because they would regard this as a rival to a certain extent.
Thank you.
Q394 Lord Mitchell: We have heard
in previous evidence that looking around Europe the countries
that are to the forefront, shall we say, are the Scandinavian
countries, Germany, Spain and Portugal. From your experience and
from what you have seen, why do you think that is true and why
do you think the UK seems to be significantly behind, which I
think you are also implying?
Ms Morgan: We have not seen the need
to do it because we have had North Sea Gas for such a long time
so we have not had the same impetus as some of those other countries.
Now we are coming to a crunch on the gas situation and this push
from Europe and clearly we need to move our position on that.
Q395 Lord Mitchell: Also the price.
The price of oil must be—
Ms Morgan: Clearly that will make a big
difference to the economics.
Q396 Lord Mitchell: What do you think
needs to be done in the UK to make sure that we get in on the
fast track?
Ms Morgan: Political commitment. It comes
down absolutely purely to political commitment. Nothing else can
explain the disparities within Europe other than political commitment.
Can I just come back to one issue on renewables, the issue of
biogas. I have had a lot of correspondence on this from some people
and it is not counted at the moment as part of the Renewables
Obligation and that is something that needs to be addressed.
Q397 Chairman: And increase the target.
Ms Morgan: At the moment it is not included
anywhere, it is not recognised as something that qualifies for
the credits in the Renewables Obligation.
Q398 Lord Powell of Bayswater: This
is an entirely different question for you as a parliamentarian.
I think I am right in saying the Commission has introduced this
under an article requiring qualified majority voting. Do you think
that will actually go or do you think states are going to want
to insist on unanimity here?
Ms Morgan: There was a lot of controversy
about this, was there not?
Q399 Lord Powell of Bayswater: Yes,
and there was an alternative legal base they could have used on
the QMV route. Certainly the British Government seems to be opposed
to that, believing they can get others to support it. Will Parliament
take a strong view on this?
Ms Morgan: Absolutely. Parliament will
not concede any territory at all on something like this, no question
about that.
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