Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280-299)
Mr Soufiane Adjali
23 OCTOBER 2007
Q280 Chairman: Can I open the meeting by thanking
you very much indeed for receiving us at rather short notice.
We have spent much of today with Frontex, with the Director and
his colleagues. There was not very much discussion about UNHCR,
so it is very helpful for us if you can give us as much detail
as you can about your relationship with Frontex, where the respective
responsibilities fall, how far you are involved in risk analysis,
the other parts of Frontex's operations, and really anything you
want to tell us. This is part of a House of Lords Committee inquiry
into Frontex. As we have just said between us, this conversation
will be recorded but if at any point you want to go off the record
please feel free to do so. As I explained to you, it is helpful
for us to have evidence on the record for the purpose of our inquiry.
We will send you any transcript of this meeting for you to comment
on, correct or amend as you wish.
Mr Adjali: Thank you. First of all, I would like
to introduce myself. I am Soufiane Adjali. I have served the Office
of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) for
many years and I have served in many part of in the world, in
the Middle East, in Africa, in the Balkans, and now I am serving
here as Senior Liaison Officer to Frontex since July 2007. The
specificity of this position is to work toward the establishment
of a formal co-operation agreement with Frontex. We are still
at the initial phase of getting to know each other, as organisations.
However, we have already a first draft Agreement for Co-operation
on the desk of our Assistant High Commissioner for Protection
and this week or next week, we will be sharing it with Frontex.
Q281 Chairman: This will be what,
a formal agreement?
Mr Adjali: A Formal co-operation. In fact, we
call it an Agreement for Co-operation.
Q282 Chairman: I see.
Mr Adjali: This will enable both Organisations,
in particular UNHCR to include protection safeguards in border
management. That is our key objective.
Q283 Chairman: As Liaison Officer
do you attend Management Board meetings?
Mr Adjali: No. UNHCR does not attend and it
is not even foreseen in the draft formal co-operation agreement.
In the Regulation establishing Frontex, we are not mentioned except
in Article 13 which authorises Frontex to establish formal relations
with UNHCR and any other organisations, including third countries.
Q284 Chairman: Since you have taken
up this position have there been any particular refugee problems
affecting Frontex's operations?
Mr Adjali: It is complex because at the moment
UNHCR does not have a formal co-operation. In the future, we will
be sitting and discussing protection benchmarks and safeguards
to be included in Frontex Operations. At this stage, I will always
refer to the UNHCR Ten Point Plan of Action, which sets the right
approach when there is a situation of mixed migratory flows. This
is a working protection document, which is still being developed
and which we use in situations of mixed migration flows.
Q285 Chairman: Thank you very much.
Incidentally, any of you who want to weigh in please do if you
can catch my eye. I see that item two is data collection and analysis.
Again, I entirely accept what you say about being rather new to
this role but so far how far have you been involved in the risk
analysis operation?
Mr Adjali: (The answer was given off the record)
Q286 Chairman: Can we go back on
the record and ask you to describe to us the respective relationships
between you and Frontex and the IOM and Frontex?
Mr Adjali: Recently the European Commission
has called for a meeting with Frontex, IOM and UNHCR. At this
stage we are still talking about the way in which each organisation
could have an input in the Frontex Sea Operations. Of course,
UNHCR will have a protection input based on the Ten Point Plan
of Action.
Q287 Chairman: Do IOM have a liaison
officer like you in Warsaw?
Mr Adjali: At this stage, there is no-one in
Warsaw from IOM.
Q288 Lord Teverson: Could I just
ask how you came to be here? Did UNHCR see Frontex was operating,
this was important and, therefore, you decided to come here and
have a relationship with them, or did they consult with UNHCR
and that meant you came here? How does it work?
Mr Adjali: There were several High Level Meetings
between UNHCR and FRONTEX prior my deployment as a Liaison Officer.
However, usually asylum seekers have to cross the borders of their
country to seek asylum. Frontex which stands for Frontières
Extérieures—External Borders, is in charge of EU
Borders' Management, therefore, anything linked to the entry points
and borders are relevant and important to UNHCR. Because a border
is the first place where a person can express her or himself and
indicate that s/he is seeking asylum. It is only after that their
status will be determined accordingly as a Refugee or not.
Q289 Chairman: We had some discussion
at Frontex about a rescue at sea and the difficulty of disembarkation.
Again, these are early days but how far are you able to help Frontex
decide who being disembarked is a refugee, who is an asylum seeker,
although that is probably quite obvious when they seek asylum?
Would you be involved in this sort of decision-making?
Mr Adjali: It is at too early a stage to speak
about the decision-making. Clearly rescue at sea is an important
issue. I do not think we could determine if a person at sea, is
a refugee or not. There is a need to disembark them in safe port,
where you may have a professional team, who will identify irregular
migrants.
Q290 Chairman: And judge who they
are.
Mr Adjali: It is an initial step and then after
we get into the refugee status determination process. When you
see the "vessels" people are using on the high seas,
for people who are navigators—you come from a country of
great navigators—there is a custom of solidarity at sea
and when we see 200 people in a really small wooden boat on high
seas, I believe that it is necessary to rescue them and disembark
them.
Q291 Chairman: I am sorry, I will
give the floor to anybody else in a moment. Have you yet been
associated with a Frontex operation?
Mr Adjali: As UNHCR?
Q292 Chairman: Yes.
Mr Adjali: No, not yet. In the future, let us
say, it will be on a case-by-case approach. Co-operation at this
stage is very much to be formalised..
Chairman: I am sorry, I have been rather monopolising
the discussion.
Q293 Baroness Henig: You have not
been concerned with any particular operation but I notice in your
ten point plan you say you are concerned about the strain on a
number of Member States and you single out in particular Malta
and Cyprus. Given that has been something we have been looking
at, and we have certainly heard from a European Member of Parliament
from Malta about the particular problems, is that something you
will be talking to Frontex about? This is an area that we have
been exploring today about the extent to which burden sharing
is a reality and how Frontex can operate in that kind of area.
Mr Adjali: Without being specific on countries,
we will be talking about everything.
Q294 Baroness Henig: But some things
more than others.
Mr Adjali: Everything, on all the borders, sea,
land and air borders. With borders like airports, land borders,
initially it is always something that the media are not attracted
to, but when it comes to the sea everybody is watching. There
are countries that are on the way and, of course, these are entry
points and protection is important. Countries are bound by international
instruments and then by regional instruments. When you are bound
by an international obligation, and Frontex is made by countries,
Frontex is obliged, like the countries that have established it,
to respect international law.
Q295 Lord Young of Norwood Green:
I just want to make sure I understood you. When you talk about
mixed migration I presume you mean what you refer to as asylum
seekers or there might be refugees. Is that what embraces mixed
migration?
Mr Adjali: Yes. Mixed migration includes persons
who could be economic migrants but also asylum seekers, who could
become refugees and other persons of concern to UNHCR. By Mixed
flows, we mean that we cannot be 100% sure that they are all illegal
migrants—economic migrants.
Q296 Lord Young of Norwood Green:
You do not make any distinction between whether they might be
legal or illegal?
Mr Adjali: (The answer was given off the record)
Q297 Chairman: Tomorrow we are visiting
the Ukrainian border. While you have been here have you had experience
of refugee movement from the Ukraine to Poland?
Mr Adjali: Recently in media reports and UNHCR
Poland is working on this case. If I am correct it is about a
family movement from the Ukraine through Poland to Slovakia, a
Chechen lady and her 4 kids whom 3 died during the movement.
Q298 Chairman: Yes.
Mr Adjali: I am not working on Poland. My focus
is Frontex.
Q299 Earl of Listowel: The proceedings
today began by the leader of Frontex saying very clearly that
human rights affects everything they do. I suppose that Frontex
offers the opportunity to really raise the standards of border
guards and particularly their understanding of what human rights
are, so I imagine that is something that pleases you. I was certainly
very concerned to learn that there are very high expectations
on Frontex and there seems to be a tension between their delivering
the high quality input and training, for instance, that they provide
and getting involved in the nitty-gritty, getting involved in
the operational work which is so important to small states. I
wonder whether you have had time yet to think what the UNHCR position
is on this. Is UNHCR keen to see that Frontex does the very important
foundational work of raising standards across the board or is
UNHCR keen to see Frontex getting very much involved in operational
matters? You have only just recently started but do you see the
tension there to a degree?
Mr Adjali: In fact, Frontex has invited UNHCR
to work with their working group in charge of drafting the Common
Core Curriculum for border guards. We have been invited and have
had the right to provide relevant inputs in terms of international
refugee law and international human rights standards. UNHCR has
contributed and will continue to contribute. It is a process.
Throughout life we learn and I hope that the border guards will
continue in their career to learn relevant aspects of Refugee
Law and Human Rights. Training is part of the co-operation. We
want to establish appropriate training workshops for personnel
involved in Frontex operations.
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