Examination of Witnesses (Questions 300-313)
Mr Soufiane Adjali
23 OCTOBER 2007
Q300 Chairman: Related to that, and
perhaps this is going to be included in the agreement, do you
see UNHCR as having a monitoring role, monitoring Frontex co-ordinated
operations?
Mr Adjali: If you look at Article 35 of the
1951 Convention we do have a supervisory role in the implementation
of the Convention. As I said, it is an EU agency created by different
states so we still have a role in each member state to supervise
the implementation of the 1951 Convention. Of course, we are not
supervising Frontex but we are working on establishing a formal
relationship which could help us contribute to bring higher protection
standards in border management.
Q301 Baroness Henig: I just wondered
whether UNHCR was concerned about migrants being intercepted in
the Mediterranean and returned to Libya, which I understand is
one of the problem issues.
Mr Adjali: (The answer was given off the record)
Q302 Baroness Henig: I thought you
might say that, particularly in view of what you have just said
about your monitoring role.
Mr Adjali: (The answer was given off the record)
Q303 Lord Jopling: I used to be part
of the OSCE years ago and as one who has admired your organisation
over the years, coming from spending the day with Frontex here
and seeing that they list the UNHCR among the very many groups
with which they have co-operation, and looking through these papers,
I find virtually no mention of Frontex. I have found Frontex mentioned
twice, but there may be more. Listening to what you said earlier,
and it will not be long before you have been here for six months,
how often do you meet them? How often do you meet them officially?
I am not talking about privately. How often do you have meetings
with them and how often do you get involved in their decision
taking? Forgive me, it does seem to me that you are somewhat detached
from that and whether that is your policy or their policy I really
would not know. It would be helpful to know a little more closely
what the connection is.
Mr Adjali: I have been here two months precisely.
Q304 Lord Jopling: I thought you
said you came in July.
Mr Adjali: Yes, July, two months. I prepared
a meeting in September where Frontex participated which was a
side event to the executive committee of UNHCR. We are meeting
regularly. We are not involved in the decision-making process
of Frontex. On the basis of Article 13 of the Regulation that
established Frontex, we are going to formalise our co-operation.
Clearly we are meeting on a regular basis to identify areas of
cooperation. We are at the initial stage and we are trying to
see where we could co-operate, what our inputs could be. We are
contributing to the Core Curriculum for border guards, as I mentioned.
These are strategic inputs and I hope this will continue in the
sense it is always protection sensitive and in respect of the
principle of non-refoulement.
Q305 Chairman: You are the first
formal Liaison Officer with Frontex?
Mr Adjali: Yes.
Q306 Earl of Listowel: Do you recognise
that Member States co-operate voluntarily with Frontex? Is that
correct? I believe it is correct. Do you see the danger that if
expectations are raised too high on what Frontex can deliver and
disappointment arises from that then the possibilities that Frontex
offers in terms of raising the quality of a border guard's performance
and the humanity with which it is delivered are lost? Do you see
that as a concern?
Mr Adjali: I cannot speak in the name of Frontex
or the EU.
Q307 Earl of Listowel: That is fair
enough.
Mr Adjali: One point that I did not answer was
in relation to the fact that there is not much reference to Frontex
in our documents. It is really a Protection working document that
we are developing. As long as we do not have any formal relationships
we do not put many references in but rather explore possible areas
of cooperation, interlocutors and players.
Q308 Lord Young of Norwood Green:
I was looking at point two of your ten point action plan on data
collection and analysis, and there does seem to be a community
of interest on one point where you say: "UNHCR will advocate
for the creation of harmonised data collection systems so that
reliable data on migration (including asylum, trafficking et cetera)
are available and can facilitate analysis of and responses to
migration trends". That is something that may not be exactly
in those terms but in their risk analysis management that is the
sort of information that Frontex will be using. Do you see any
community of interest there?
Mr Adjali: (The answer was given off the record)
Q309 Lord Young of Norwood Green:
Can you enlighten my ignorance here. Can you translate "refoulement"?
What does it mean?
Mr Adjali: It means if you arrive at the border
and you say, "I am not willing to return to my country of
origin, I want to seek asylum" and the authority says, "You
are denied access" you just go back" or, "You are
not going to enter", they send you back to a country where
this person might be at risk of being persecution.
Q310 Lord Young of Norwood Green:
So sending them back is refoulement?
Mr Adjali: Yes. I am being very, very basic
here. It is simply a person being denied access to all the legal
procedures and sent back to his country of origin or place of
habitual residence where he might face persecution. It is Article
33(1) of the 1951 Convention which defines the Principle of non-refoulement.
This Article is known to all UNHCR protection officers.
Q311 Chairman: Mr Adjali, you have
been extremely helpful. Thank you very much. I fully accept you
are very new in the job but you have been very frank with us,
both on and off the record. I really am very grateful to you for
having received us because it is an important part of the Frontex
picture.
Mr Adjali: We are in the process of building
something and it is important when it is about borders that UNHCR
is present, but it has to be present within a legal framework
and we are working towards that.
Q312 Chairman: When do you expect
that framework to be finished?
Mr Adjali: It has to be shared first with Frontex
and then we will see.
Q313 Chairman: Of course. Thank you
very much indeed.
Mr Adjali: You are welcome.
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