Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-349)
Colonel Andrzej Mackiewicz, Deputy Commander Wojciech
Woloch, Captain Monika Parszewska, Major Stanislaw Zelent and
Captain Piotr Sawicki
24 OCTOBER 2007
Q340 Lord Harrison: How did you do
that, because you caught the ten and 18 coming through and then
you caught 12 organisers? What are the mechanisms to trace it
back to the real criminals who are organising these groups coming
through? Did you interrogate them here? Did you interrogate them
very hard?
Mr Woloch: There are different methods.
These are mostly reconnaissance activities. We try to get some
information first on the criminal groups. The Polish Border Guard,
just as the police, is statutorily entitled to carry out such
reconnaissance activities and, of course, we interrogate witnesses,
illegal immigrants and facilitators. You asked about the interrogation
and it is not such hard interrogation, theses are routine activities.
No physical impact is used because I understand that it is what
you meant in your question.
Q341 Chairman: We congratulate you,
this was obviously a very successful operation, but can you comment
at all both on the co-operation you received from the Belarus
or Ukrainian authorities and, secondly, and nearer to the subject
of our inquiry, is Frontex involved in these operations? If so,
how?
Mr Woloch: As far as co-operation with
neighbouring countries is concerned, we will talk about that later
but I would like to tell you something about co-operation with
Frontex. I would like to add one sentence concerning the co-operation
with border authorities protecting the border on the opposite
side. Such co-operation is conducted on an ongoing basis but at
this moment it should be underlined that co-operation with the
Ukraine is more open and dynamic in comparison with the co-operation
with Belarus. One factor that may have an influence on this kind
of co-operation is that the border authorities protecting the
border sector on the Ukrainian side are more like a police formation
and in Belarus it is more like the Army.
Q342 Chairman: And Frontex?
Mr Woloch: Of course, the co-operation
with Frontex keeps on evolving each month. One operation took
place not long ago and soon another will take place here. During
the last operation conducted with Frontex we had guests from other
European Union Member States here, eight guest officers who stayed
at this particular border guard post. In my opinion, co-operation
with Frontex is a very good and positive aspect of border protection.
We have been engaged in several common operations with Frontex.
What is important as far as such co-operation with Frontex is
concerned is that the exchange of information is very positive,
it takes place fast and the information exchange is very precise.
Q343 Chairman: That is very helpful.
Is it fair to ask if our friend, the Colonel, wants to add any
comment on this?
Mr Mackiewicz: Yes, of course. As far as co-operation
with Frontex is concerned, at the level of headquarters of the
Polish Border Guard it is a more strategic one and as far as some
operations are concerned, in order to decide which border guard
unit shall participate, there is joint acceptance required from
both the Border Management Department and the Bureau of International
Co-operation. This concerns land, sea and air borders. This is
directed at the countries where there is an increased level of
risk. There is an exchange of officials from different authorities
and they are interchanged between different authorities involved.
Chairman: Colonel, thank you very much. I apologise
to the Deputy Commander.
Q344 Lord Jopling: Can I ask another
question and it is a question which I understand it is impossible
to give a precise answer to. Looking at those figures, about a
quarter of the people you apprehended were on the green border
and that presumably includes the terrestrial border south in the
mountains. Could you make an estimate of how many illegals are
coming across this border whom you do not apprehend because we
have had a problem in Northern Ireland and we understand that
it is impossible to stop migration across terrestrial borders
in particular? Could you make an estimate of how heavy is the
inflow of illegal immigrants into the EU across this border?
Mr Woloch: Of course, as you have already
said, it is very, very difficult to precisely estimate such figures
but I would like to underline one thing: the border guard conducts
checks and control activities at different levels and there are
different stages involved and that is why we have some notion
of the numbers of illegals who were not apprehended at the border.
The first line of control is the border. The second line are activities
in the border zone and also inside the country, so hotels and
other places are checked where illegal immigrants may gather or
may be kept. At the second stage we can make some estimate as
far as numbers are concerned but, of course, this is not the full
percentage because to the whole figure the numbers of illegals
should be added, the illegals who are apprehended at the internal
European Union border. In order to get such figures we must add
the numbers of illegals who manage to cross the border and stay
at hotels and other places, and the number of persons stopped
at the border with Germany, the Czech Republic and Slovakia. At
this moment it is difficult for me to say what the exact percentage
is because such analyses are conducted here as far as the regional
unit is concerned, so the information will not be complete because
it is up to the HQ to make such analyses. At our border sector
we estimate that it is between several and a dozen or so percentage.
Q345 Chairman: Deputy Commander,
I am particularly guilty of having interrupted your presentation
but I think it is time really to discipline myself and my colleagues
to allow you to get on with the presentation. My apologies.
Mr Mackiewicz: I have something else to say
about illegal immigration. Sometimes people cross the border to
Poland legally and then they become illegal immigrants.
Q346 Chairman: Overstayers.
Mr Mackiewicz: Because they try to reach other
countries of the European Union and Great Britain as well. We
have had such cases of that. It happened in 2006 when illegals
used Polish identity cards and travelled on a bus to Great Britain.
Mr Woloch: It should be underlined that
the exact percentage is impossible to be given, for example, because
some channels of illegal immigration could have operated before.
During several months of an investigation and elimination of the
migration the percentage will vary, from a dozen or so percent
to several percent, because in a given year we may not know such
a channel of illegal immigration existed so we do not take such
figures into account. That is why it is really, really difficult
to estimate such a percentage. On the examples I have already
provided, for example at the border with Belarus, it is difficult
to say whether these were the first cases of smuggling of people.
During the preparatory proceedings we found evidence that there
were at least two cases of illegal immigration that were successful
for the organisers. That is why it is very difficult to tell you
the exact percentage.
Ms Parszewska: We have talked about illegal
immigration. If you are interested in the main nationalities,
these are mainly nationals of Moldova, Georgia, Vietnam, Russia
and Pakistan. This is data from 2006.
Q347 Chairman: Will you be able to
let us have copies of these slides?
Mr Woloch: Yes.
Ms Parszewska: These are graphs representing
the numbers of persons apprehended for breaching the legal borders.
Here you can see what happened in previous years at the border
with Ukraine, which is the green colour, and the border with Belarus,
which is the yellow colour. The numbers of the apprehended on
the border with Belarus are much smaller. This is more information
about the apprehended persons. 18% of them were apprehended for
attempting to cross or crossing the state border illegally. The
82% remaining were apprehended for other crimes and offences.
These are mostly for organising and assisting in illegal border
crossing or attempting to leave Poland in a stolen vehicle or
smuggling goods. This is information on passenger border traffic.
As you can see, there was a decrease in numbers in 2004 when we
joined the European Union. Of course, one of the reasons was the
visa requirement that was introduced but then each year gradually
the numbers have increased. In 2006 12 million passengers crossed
the border. Here you can see some numbers as far as particular
border crossing points are concerned. As you can see, the biggest
number of travellers crossed the border in Terespol. At Dorohusk
more than three million passengers were cleared last year. This
is some information on the foreigners who were denied entry into
the territory of Poland. There were more than 22,000 of them in
2006. They were mainly refused entry because they did not have
the financial means to cover their stay here, they did not have
a valid visa or their purpose for entry was other than their declared
one. These are two slides about co-operation with the border protection
services of Ukraine and Belarus. As you can see, the Commander
of the Nadbuzanski Border Guard Regional Unit has his counterpart
in Brest, this is the Commander of the Brest Unit of the Belarussian
Border Forces. In Ukraine there are two units, one is based in
Luck and the other one is based in Lvov. Our Commander co-operates
with the heads of the Luck and Lvov units of the Ukrainian State
Border Service. In Dorohusk there is a consultation point and
you will have a chance to see that later on. It started to operate
in—December 2004 and there is a similar one in Krakowiec.
This is mostly for the exchange of information.
Q348 Chairman: Can I just ask, at
a personal level do you communicate in Russian with Ukraine and
Belarus?
Ms Parszewska: Yes. The proposal now is to shorten
the discussion. I will not present the whole of the presentation
but only general information as you will have it on the CD, which
I have got here. We need some time to go around and do some sightseeing,
and lunch is waiting as well.
Q349 Chairman: I promise not to ask
you another question!
Mr Woloch: Unfortunately we have some
technical problems but there are only a few slides left. They
concern the equipment that we use for border checks and border
surveillance but we will see such equipment outside. There is
also a slide with service dogs, which we have already discussed.
Just to supplement some information, I would like to say that
we have 47 dogs in service. We also have aircraft. There is one
plane and two helicopters. This is a short summary of what has
been left in the presentation. They are used for border surveillance
and equipped with infrared equipment. There is special equipment
at the border guard posts, mobile equipment for border surveillance
and infrared equipment. As far as the presentations are concerned
you will have them on the CD. You can see the details later on.
It is difficult to discuss all of that here because we are short
of time and sometimes equipment can fail us.
Chairman: Human beings are much more reliable.
Lord Teverson: It is the Microsoft world conspiracy!
Chairman: Thank you very much.
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