Examination of Witnesses (Questions 351-359)
Mr Wieslaw Tarka, Ms Malgorzata Kutyla and Brigadier
General Miroslaw Kusmierczak
25 OCTOBER 2007
Q351 Chairman: Good morning. Thank you for meeting
us this morning.
Mr Tarka: Welcome to the Ministry of the Interior
and Administration. As I understand we have a very limited period
of time because today I am leaving for our German/Polish Commission
in Wroclaw in the west of Poland, so unfortunately I can only
offer you half an hour. I think that is sufficient time to touch
on the most essential problems that may be of interest to you.
I know that you visited the border crossing point at Dorohusk
yesterday and I hope that was interesting as it is at the eastern
border of Poland to the Ukraine and very soon it will be the outer
border of the Schengen area, most probably from 21 December this
year. I think it would be of interest if I give you a very brief
introduction to the Ministry itself and then I will talk about
our management of the external border, that is the external border
of Poland, the European Union and, as I said, from 21 December
the outer border of the Schengen area. As you know, the Ministry
of the Interior and Administration is the largest ministry in
Poland, being responsible for the border guard, police, government
security, fire services, administration, computer development,
informatics, registers, passports, ID cards and so on. I know
that you do not have ID cards in England but we have a long tradition
of ID cards. Everything is within the Ministry of the Interior.
As we have the border guard, I would like to present the head
of the Polish Border Guard, General Miroslaw Kusmierczak, who
is responsible for the border guard that we are very proud of
because it is a unit that is relatively young, more or less 15
years old. It is very modern and very well organised, providing
security not only for Poland but in the future for the entire
European Union being within the Schengen area. Our border became
the external border of the European Union from 1 May 2004. The
line of our external eastern border is 1,185km. It is one of the
longest sections of land frontier guarded by a single Member State.
As far as the eastern border, we compete with Finland. Finland
has a long border but, as you know, their location on the map
is slightly different, they are further up on the map. In the
central section of Europe this is definitely the longest border.
We bear responsibility for providing all Member States with a
high level of security against threats from unwanted persons or
goods and in order to do so we have developed a clear and effective
border management system. I have the honour to be the head of
the inter-ministerial Group on the management of the state border
because at the border we do not only have border guards responsible
for border traffic but we have customs services as well under
the Ministry of Finance, or the Chancellor of the Exchequer in
your terms, and we have some services that are with the Ministry
of Agriculture and Rural Development and so on. I will give you
a short insight into the list of ministries represented on the
inter-ministerial group and you will know who is participating
in the border management and who is present at the border. It
is our Ministry, of course, chairing this group, then we have
the Ministries of Finance, Economy, Defence, Environment, Treasury,
Foreign Affairs, Agriculture and Rural Development, Transport
and Health. We have the secretary of the Committee for European
Integration as we have many European funds that have been received
by Poland in order to develop the infrastructure at the border.
We have the head of the customs service, the chief commander of
the border guards, the chief commander of police and head of the
office of foreigners, or aliens' office, the office responsible
for migratory affairs in Poland. The task of this group includes
the preparation of state border management programmes, the principles
for financing by the respective bodies, and providing opinion
on the initiation of activities concerning the organisation and
maintenance of border crossings and the conditions to perform
effective operational border control, customs, sanitary, veterinary,
phytosanitary, chemical and radiometric services, the co-ordination
of co-operation of central and regional, national authorities
within the scope of state border management, and providing opinion
on the initiation of activities to improve the conditions of the
border crossing service for persons, goods and vehicles. The main
document for us is the so-called Integrated Border Management
Programme that we have launched for 2007-13 developed by our Ministry
headed in the Department by Ms Kutyla, who is here, who is the
head of the Department for European Union and International Affairs.
This document provides strategic goals and priorities for the
new Financial Perspective 2007-13. It is no coincidence that those
two terms overlap. It regards problems such as investment in border
infrastructure and the enhancement of inter-agency co-operation
systems. Priorities set out by the programme correspond with the
priorities of both Polish and European strategic documents, especially
such European programmes as the External Border Fund that you
can find in the strategic guidelines. You probably heard of this
at the border at Dorohusk, that the Polish law clearly identifies
the administrative authorities responsible for maintenance and
investment at the border crossing points. Two years ago we cleared
a system and now the representative of the government's administration
in the Voivod region is entirely responsible for all border crossing
points on the river, land, railway and so on. The Voivod is responsible
for the maintenance of border crossing points and conditions to
perform all of those controls that are needed. It is responsible
for planning and carrying out investments at border crossing points
and is responsible for construction of new border crossing points.
As I said, we have the Chief of the Polish Border Guard here.
The border guard is an armed, uniformed and fully professional
service that is responsible for border surveillance and control.
The Polish Border Guard organisational and structural capabilities
and equipment are entirely in line with the Schengen requirements
and appropriate to the future task. Border control of goods that
enter the international market is performed by several national
services, like the customs service under the Ministry of Finance,
veterinary inspection, the state plant and seed inspection service,
the state sanitary inspection and agricultural and food safety
inspection. The supportive role in all of those matters is carried
out by the police in areas such as combating cross-border and
organised crime. I have to add as well that approaching the date
of entry of Poland into the Schengen area, some time ago we changed
the law of the border guard so the border guard has the right
to act not only within the border strip or close to the border
but on the entire surface of the country, so it means that the
border police are the second police service in Poland that can
be active over the entire territory of the country. To leave some
time for possible questions from your side, because I think that
will be the most important and interesting part of our meeting,
I will briefly mention the efforts that we have been making in
order to improve the border crossing point standards to facilitate
and secure this movement. This year Voivod has spent approximately
€43 million for the border infrastructure. Moreover, we have
an ongoing Programme of modernisation of Police, Border Guard
and State Fire Services and the Government Protection Bureau for
2007-09 that was passed by our parliament in January of this year
and this programme allocates an additional €246 million for
border guard infrastructure and equipment. We are raising money
from several foreign funds as well to enhance border management,
for example the Schengen facility, the Norwegian financial mechanism.
At the present moment there are three new border crossing points
that have been built. At the Polish-Russian border with the Kaliningrad
district we have a very special border crossing point there at
Grzechutki. It is next to the Augustuv channel where there is
a river border crossing point at the border with Belarus, a very
special tourist initiative. A similar project is Bialowieza, a
road border crossing point, but it is only for pedestrians and
bicycles. That is very important because it is in the middle of
the forest and it has to meet the very high architectural and
environmental criteria required in this national park. 14 border
crossing points have been enlarged and modernised recently. At
the border with the Ukraine we are planning four further new road
crossing points: Dolnobyczow-Uhrynow, Zboreze-Adamczuki, that
is for the Voivod Lublin region, Malhowice-Nizankowice and Budomierz-Hruszew,
which is the Subcarpathian Voivod to the south-east of Poland.
All of those projects I have mentioned are additional ones. We
think the essential infrastructure as far as border crossing points
are concerned is already there and we have to effectively use
the infrastructure that is already in place but organised better.
We will see how the flows of goods and persons will look after
the entry of Poland to the Schengen area when the Polish outer
border will be at the same time the outer border of the Schengen
area. I have been talkative and used the majority of our time,
but not too much so we have some minutes left for your questions.
Please feel free to ask questions of me or my colleagues.
Q352 Chairman: Minister, thank you
very much indeed. Given the shortage of time available to you,
I will not introduce all my colleagues. We are all members of
a House of Lords sub-committee and we are conducting an inquiry
into Frontex. Can I thank you very much for receiving us in your
busy life, for sparing us half an hour. Is it impertinent of me
to greet you as another ex-diplomat? I think we are probably the
only two ex-diplomats in the room. It is very nice to meet you,
thank you very much for receiving us. If I may, I will start with
a question or two, but I hope that the General will be happy to
continue to answer our questions after you have to leave. That
depends on the General's programme. Minister, could I ask you
to tell us what you regard as the main threats across your border,
both land, sea and air? In your priorities, where are the threats
facing Poland?
Mr Tarka: I am participating in discussions
within the European Union on the borders and at the present moment
we have a very heavy accent put on the southern border where there
are problems in the western part of the Mediterranean area between
Italy and Libya. At the present time we do not have a threat to
the eastern border of the European Union on the Polish section
or Finnish or Baltic sections. The major threat is if we forget
and we think it is given for all time and take it for granted
that there will not be any threat in the future. The major threat
is if we sleep now and do not think of possible scenarios in the
future. The situation is under control now and the economic situation
to the east of the Polish border in the entire area is improving,
so it is diminishing the pressure on the external European border
but it is not forever, not for all time. Even today we have to
pay attention to possible medium and long-term risk analysis.
We have to maintain the infrastructure and reserve funds for the
eastern border as well, not only to think unilaterally of the
southern border which is really in the short-term and a known
problem. I would say that is the problem.
Q353 Chairman: That is very helpful.
Can I ask a second question, and that is the subject of our inquiry
is Frontex. Is there anything you can tell us about the relationship
between your Ministry and Frontex and the extent to which you
are finding Frontex helpful or unhelpful, but I hope helpful,
in the frontier guard activities?
Mr Tarka: We are very proud to have Frontex
here in Poland. Their location here, some 200km from the eastern
border of the European Union and very soon from the eastern border
of the Schengen area because Belarus is 200km from here, the Polish-Belarussian
border, is symbolic and very important. It is the first agency
that has been located in one of the new Member States and we are
very proud of it. At the same time, from the beginning we have
been very keen to preserve and respect the status of this agency
because it is a European agency, not a Polish one. We have to
support and create an environment for the good functioning of
this agency but without interfering too much in internal problems.
We have given a starting package to this agency, 18 months for
the building, and we are paying for this. We have raised funds
and bought about 35 working places, computers and equipment, furniture
and so on, as a starting package. In the long-term we do not think
that we should contribute in a special way financially because
we are a member of the European Union, so we are funding this
via the European Union as a whole. Our philosophy was to create
and support the agency but at the same time the agency is responsible
for itself, it is an independent agency. They have to build their
future on their own because they are adults, it is an adult institution,
but we understand at the very beginning it can be difficult. The
situation with Frontex was complicated because, on the one hand,
it was a new agency in a period of organisation and growth and,
on the other hand, there were tasks put on its shoulders from
the very beginning. It was very difficult to start to work immediately
while at the same time building up the structure. I hope the agency
has got over this period. We have helped as much as possible,
I have had good contact with General Laitinen, but at the same
time we were very clear from the beginning that apart from the
starting package it is a European agency that must regard itself
as a European agency and find solutions within the European framework.
Q354 Chairman: Do you envisage concluding
a long-term status agreement with them?
Mr Tarka: Yes. We have signed something called
the Memorandum of Understanding because the protocol immunities
between Poland the European Union are already in place that not
every member country has. We think we should avoid duplication
of many regulations. Even if we sign a first, second or third
agreement but do not use it, it is not worth anything. From the
very beginning our position has been that we wanted the agency
to realise and use the law that is already in place. In the beginning
there was a little bit of a misunderstanding because we felt that
instead of creating new law you should first use the law that
is in place. For us, the existing law, the protocol of immunities
that we have signed with the European Union regulating practically
all areas, was enough. As there was a repeated requested from
Frontex to sign a possible Memorandum of Understanding we have
done it but for us it is confirmation of rights that were already
there.
Chairman: Thank you very much. Minister, if
you have got a few minutes perhaps I could ask Lord Harrison to
ask a question.
Q355 Lord Harrison: Minister, would
you take our best wishes to the people of Wroclaw when you get
there today. I was very pleased to meet the deputy mayor and minister
for tourism earlier this year in London. Poland will soon be responsible
for a large part of the external EU border to the east, how do
you assess the level of trust that other EU countries invest in
Poland accomplishing this task? Has the fact of Frontex coming
into existence strengthened the level of trust that we place in
you to do this job well?
Mr Tarka: Thank you very much for that question.
The answer is quite complex. The security of the Polish section
of the border is our national responsibility. I do not think that
anyone in Europe can think that we value our own security less
than European security, or the other way around. Polish security
and European security, the security of the future enlarged Schengen
area, is the same. We are protecting our external borders in the
interests of Poland in particular but in the interests of Europe
as well. Frontex is one of the elements and it is a European agency,
so it is not only responsible for Poland but from our perspective
it is responsible globally in European terms. We are very proud
of our border guard because it was built from scratch. You probably
know that the old Communist countries were guarding the western
border because tourists came to the west, not to the east. According
to this principle, the responsibility at our eastern border was
on the Soviet side, not on our side. It was a disadvantage at
the very beginning but after it was to our advantage because we
could build it from scratch, from nothing. We think that we have
done it very well. I hope you have seen the infrastructure at
Dorohusk, which is not the largest and most modern of border crossing
points. In March of this year we opened a newly modernised border
crossing point at Hrebenne at the border with Ukraine and the
international connection between Warsaw and Kiev. It is one of
the major European transportation corridors. We have very good
infrastructure in place. We have a very good service and very
motivated border guards. We are not just proud of our border guard
outside of Poland but at the same time it is a question of information
and if you take the latest reports after the evaluation of our
borders we are very proud of that.
Chairman: Minister, I should have said earlier,
if I may, without being impertinent that I think you have every
reason to be proud of your frontier guard. We were given an extremely
good programme yesterday and visited the frontier guard at the
border and we were very impressed by everything that we saw.
Q356 Lord Jopling: Minister, I hope
you will allow me to be frank. The impression I have got from
listening to you over the last half an hour is that you are justifiably
proud of your existing border guards and you are glad to have
Frontex based in Warsaw, but what I have not heard is how you
believe that Frontex can make things better. Looking at the six
tasks which are laid down in the Union's Regulation setting up
Frontex, will you tell us over the next ten years or so how you
think things could be made better for you in Poland as a result
of the activities of Frontex, because that is what we are inquiring
into? With great respect to you, I have not really heard from
you any specific things that you think you can benefit from by
the activities of Frontex.
Mr Tarka: Thank you for that question. I thought
that I had answered it indirectly but I will repeat it. As I understood
our discussion here it was about the national responsibility prior
to the enlargement of the Schengen area and our national responsibility
for border security. Of course, the security of the Polish border
as a part of the European external border is another question
because it is another framework, it is the European perspective,
not the national one. If you ask me, I would need an hour to approach
the question in a general way. I would like just to signal two
items here. I think it is a real value-added for us and especially
for countries that are smaller than Poland, because Poland is
a member of the G6 group, as is the UK, and we have already had
our first presidency in this group and Jacqui Smith in support
last week. For Poland, but especially for smaller countries where
the ability for risk analysis, strength analysis, is limited it
may be of real value-added, the competence and knowledge on a
global scale that a separate state cannot do. That is one thing.
The second thing is what is happening now on the southern border
of the European Union where if it is needed you can act quickly.
At the moment it is not needed at the Polish eastern border for
the reasons I gave, because the situation is stabilised, but that
may not be forever. If, in the future, there is a similar threat—we
do not think it is immediate or medium-term but perhaps long-term—a
similar situation to that in the Mediterranean area, there could
be a need for quick action. That is the second thing. I will add
a third, which is the strengthening co-operation between border
guards and the training of personnel according to the same rules
and standards, that we speak the same language and our way of
thinking is becoming closer and closer. It remains a national
responsibility but we have a platform so we can become even closer.
Chairman: Minister, that is very helpful. If
you have got another minute or two can I give the last question
to Lady Henig.
Q357 Baroness Henig: You have told
us how Poland has taken steps to comply with Schengen, and I was
very interested in all the preparations you have made and money
you have spent, and that is extremely impressive. I wondered what
broadly your views were on the Schengen System, ie seeing that
developing with Poland as a member running that frontier.
Mr Tarka: In what terms?
Q358 Baroness Henig: What are your
views on the Schengen System?
Mr Tarka: I am chairing a Polish-Lithuanian
cross-border co-operation committee and two weeks ago we had a
meeting in the north-eastern city of Augustuv and on that occasion
I visited the border crossing point between Poland and Lithuania.
Soon it will be the internal border but at present it is the outer
border and the SISoneforall has functioned there from 12 September.
I was impressed how the SIS System is working there. When they
are checking the documents, it is a very practical and very simple
thing to check ID cards or passports and it is reacting within
one second. We are very grateful to Portugal for giving us this
solution. The system is functioning well. We know that it is temporary
and we are preparing for SIS II. Yesterday in our parliament I
was discussing with our MPs the possible solution that will bridge
if there are further delays to SIS II. You need a legal bridge
for SIS NET. Everything is temporary. I am very grateful to Portugal,
the system is working well and we have already had more than 1,000
hits on the system since 12 September, so it is evidence that
the system is working well and it is bearing fruit for us.
Q359 Chairman: Minister, when I was
head of the Foreign Office in London I once received an ambassador,
who will be nameless, and I counted that he said "finally"
five times. I wonder if I can just say "finally" for
the last time. Have you got anything you want to say to us about
the rather special position of Britain vis-a"-vis Schengen?
Does it impinge on your interests at all?
Mr Tarka: I would not like to in any way interfere
in the United Kingdom's internal affairs.
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