Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360-370)
Mr Wieslaw Tarka, Ms Malgorzata Kutyla and Brigadier
General Miroslaw Kusmierczak
25 OCTOBER 2007
Q360 Chairman: Oh, pity!
Mr Tarka: I think we live in a more and more
globalised world and at the time of the Internet, of other electronic
penetration and so on, the traditional ways of securing internal
security are not enough and they are really out of date. On the
security of Europe as a whole, speaking of Joe Scarborough, he
used to say it is impossible to be pregnant 50%, half-way pregnant;
you are pregnant or not. It is the same with Schengen. If you
participate in the system entirely then you have the legal basis
and can exchange documents, data and so on. You can find a halfway
solution for the short-term but in the long-term you are in the
system or you are not. Being in the system we hope that we will
have a good experience as we have done so far with Schengen. In
this co-operation we have already seen that the only way to actively
and in an effective way combat organised crime and international
criminality is to do it together and not separately. Thank you
very much.
Q361 Chairman: Minister, thank you
very much indeed.
Mr Tarka: Thank you. I wish you all the best
for your stay in Warsaw.
Q362 Chairman: That is very kind
of you. Thank you. General, can I repeat my thanks for the programme
we were given yesterday. Also, can I repeat my condolences about
the loss of your Commander in Dorohusk. If you are happy I wonder
if you would answer a few questions, particularly about Frontex,
because that is the subject of our inquiry. As the overall Commander
of the frontier guard, could you just give us some idea of how
far you regard Frontex as helpful, what are your relations with
Frontex and anything you want to say about that aspect of your
work.
Brigadier General Kusmierczak: (Through an interpreter)
Thank you for your condolences on the death of the Commander in
Dorohusk, which was an unexpected event and we were shocked by
this.
Q363 Chairman: I am very sorry.
Brigadier General Kusmierczak: As far as our
co-operation with Frontex is concerned, we are participating in
the activity of Frontex on the external borders. We have already
participated in more than ten such actions on external borders.
We are preparing to do two such operations on the Ukrainian-Romanian
border and Ukrainian-Hungarian border. As far as these two actions
are concerned, they are going to take place at the end of October.
The first action at the Ukrainian-Romanian border will concern
traffic control. The other action on the Ukrainian-Hungarian border
will concern illegal migration, so the green border crossing.
We have appointed about 20 border guard officers to participate
in the RABIT groups. Also we have search equipment and two helicopters,
cameras and night visors, so if need be we are ready to delegate
our specialists to participate in those operations where needed.
Those who will be delegated speak English better than me so there
will be no communication problems.
Q364 Chairman: Through your interpreter,
if I may say so you speak English perfectly.
Brigadier General Kusmierczak: Of course, I
can also communicate with the French or Germans in English; it
is no problem!
Q365 Chairman: I think you can. Monsieur
Giscard used to communicate with Helmut Schmidt in English and
if Monsieur Giscard could do it I think you can.
Brigadier General Kusmierczak: But not on such
serious matters.
Chairman: General, I wonder if I could ask Lord
Teverson to ask a question.
Q366 Lord Teverson: General, can
I congratulate you on what I thought was the extremely professional
operation that we saw yesterday. What we were particularly interested
in was the trust between your own border guard and those of neighbouring
countries, in your instance particularly Belarus and Ukraine.
We were pleased to meet a Ukrainian border guard who was stationed
at Dorohusk. How does that work and does co-operation across the
border work well? Are trust levels good? Is that continuing to
develop successfully?
Brigadier General Kusmierczak: Under the last
evaluation on the border with Ukraine our co-operation with Ukraine
was satisfactory but those relations have become a little bit
more difficult after some remarks made by an EU expert from Estonia
about our co-operation with Ukraine. This expert said that as
far as the two border crossings are concerned the co-operation
is too close. There is an example of one border crossing in Zosin
where we made some border checks on one side and Polish functionaries
were making checks on the Ukrainian side and vice versa, which
meant that Ukrainian functionaries made controls on the Polish
side. There is no regulation as such either in the Schengen code
or in other regulations indicating where these checks should be
made, if they should be made on the one side or the other side
of the border. As far as the Polish-German border is concerned,
this is a good example where Polish Border Guards were realising
checks on the German side and vice versa. It was not an obstacle
for Germany to enter the Schengen area. We changed the checking
rules in Zosin and began to realise checks only on our side which
made the co-operation a little colder.
Q367 Chairman: The Minister said
to us, quite understandably, that you regarded the checks on your
frontier as being particularly in the interest of Poland but also
in the interest of the whole Schengen area, and that will particularly
apply when we become full members of Schengen. To what extent
do your Ukrainian and Belarus colleagues see your frontier guard
operations as in your mutual interest, as much in the interest
of Ukraine and Belarus as they are in the interest of Poland?
Brigadier General Kusmierczak: The incident
I cited had no influence on the overall security of the Schengen
area and the Belarussian and Ukrainian services are aware of the
fact that this is the security of the whole Schengen area and
the third countries are also responsible for the control on counteracting
illegal migration. Our co-operation with the Ukraine as far as
counteracting and fighting illegal migration is becoming better
and better.
Ms Kutyla: (Through an interpreter) I would
like to mention two important elements concerning our co-operation
with Ukraine. It is good because for more than ten years we have
been supporting Ukrainian efforts to gain EU funds and those funds
will be transferred to finance border infrastructure on the Ukrainian
side and the Ukraine will benefit from some programmes which will
allow investment in the area of equipment for border guards. Also,
Ukrainian border guards are involved in some twinning programmes
which allow them to learn how Polish know-how could be used in
their case.
Q368 Chairman: Is this an area where
Frontex can be of help?
Ms Kutyla: From the financial point of view
it is more complicated because there are some financial regulations
which mean that we are working on programmes that were approved
two or three years ago by the European Commission. This perspective
allows us to think only of these programmes. As far as Belarus
and Ukraine are concerned, we cannot compare the co-operation
with those two countries because it is rather different. With
Belarus we are taking into consideration the political situation,
so political talks are not involved with this country. As far
as Ukraine is concerned, the situation concerns the fact that
after our accession to the Schengen area we had this problem of
fees for visas to be paid. We are expecting the agreement between
the EU and the Ukraine to be signed this year because it will
have an impact on the fee which will not be €35 but €60.
Chairman: General, I know your time is very
limited and you have to leave soon but could I ask Lord Jopling
to ask our last question.
Q369 Lord Jopling: Coming back to
Frontex, you have recently participated, as we understand, in
Operation Ariadne. I wonder if you could tell us what lessons
you have learnt from that and how, as a result of Ariandne, you
would like to see Frontex developing their activities in the light
of those lessons learnt?
Brigadier General Kusmierczak: This operation
that was carried out on the Ukrainian-Polish-Belarussian border
was aimed at detecting illegal migration, document counterfeiting
and detecting people transported illegally. As far as the phenomenon
observed on those borders we can say the phenomenon of illegal
transportation of people is more frequent on the Polish western
border than on the eastern border where illegal crossing is made
with the help of false documents or with authentic documents but
issued under another name. We would really like to exchange our
experience concerning the fighting of illegal migration and document
counterfeiting, so every opportunity for us to share this with
other border guards is important. We are really interested in
repeating this kind of operation on our borders because it can
only help us to check our know-how, ability and skills.
Q370 Chairman: General, thank you
very much indeed. I am very grateful to you for sparing time for
us this morning. It has been a great experience for this Committee
to see what the frontier guard are doing. Although the main topic
of our inquiry is Frontex, nevertheless it has been very important
for us both to see on the ground yesterday what you are doing
and to hear from you today. On behalf of all my colleagues, can
I thank you very much indeed.
Brigadier General Kusmierczak: It was a great
pleasure for me to present our activities and methods of fighting
the most important threats, and among those threats the illegal
migration.
Chairman: I would also like to express, through
you, our thanks to the Colonel for the help he has given us, and
for his company which we have much enjoyed. Thank you very much
indeed.
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