Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360-379)
Mrs Lesley Morris, Dr Frank O'Connor, Dr Tracy Bhamra
and Ms Clare Brass
5 FEBRUARY 2008
Q360 Lord May of Oxford: We have
had quite a bit of written evidence that suggests that not much
emphasis has been placed on sustainable design and waste reduction
in the education of designers, which seems to me understandable
because for many of the clients the emphasis is not on having
things sustainable. I am reminded of the myth, perhaps, that after
World War Two more emphasis was put on designing stockings that
wore out quickly than on developing nylon in the first place—something
made immortal in the Alec Guinness movie. My question is: how
are these topics of sustainable design and waste reduction actually
taught to young designers, at school and university, and how do
you think it could be improved?
Dr Bhamra: With everything to do with sustainable
design, again, it is quite an ad hoc process; it always seems
to be down to individual members of staff with an enthusiasm and
interest for the subject to introduce it. So at A Level there
are examples of students being taught issues of sustainable design.
Practical Action run a scheme called the sustainable design award
for A Level students to try and encourage them to think about
sustainability, and that has been very successful. Unfortunately,
the funding for this scheme has now finished so it is now down
to individual members of staff within schools to introduce it,
if they have an interest. At degree level there are examples of
specialist degrees in sustainable design, but unfortunately they
do not tend to be particularly popular with students (there are
very small numbers on those courses), and there are examples of
degree courses running modules on sustainable design and trying
to integrate it throughout the design course. At Loughborough
that is the approach we take.
Q361 Lord May of Oxford: Given what
some—and I, for one—would perceive as a problem of
certain client/designer tension, do you think it would be better
to make more of an effort to integrate the concept of sustainable
design into all aspects rather than have it as a specialist thing
or a module that people can opt out of?
Ms Brass: Absolutely. Currently, design sustainability
is still being treated as an add-on (it is an extra thing that
you can study) but it should be an underlying necessity of every
design student, so that every designer who is going to come out
of college will be able to use what they know to reduce the environmental
impact in their professional life. Currently, it is still being
treated as an add-on, and it is not particularly popular with
students.
Mrs Morris: There are two things there. One
is what we were talking about, about integrating subjects, because
I think that is one way of having something which is cross-curricular.
If you have projects in the schools area, certainly, that cut
right across different subject areas then it is much easier to
address some of these things. There are some projects like that
around. We have just done one called the Ecodesign Challenge,
in a programme we did in the North East. It was for any subject
area, and it did get groups of students together working in that
way. However, there is very little that really goes on like that.
The other issue is about what knowledge and understanding teachers
and tutors have. I do think there is some work to be done to train
the trainers, to be honest. Not everybody is up to a level of
understanding or expertise, in terms of what really is this issue,
how do you teach it, what is the best way of integrating it? There
are pockets of brilliant examples, I am sure, all round the country
in schools and universities, but it is not common place at all.
Q362 Lord May of Oxford: Could we
rephrase this by saying, to a certain extent, you are saying that
the older generation, who are the transmitters of the cannon,
come from a time when this was not part of the cannon?
Ms Brass: Absolutely.
Mrs Morris: That is true, and I think there
is different understanding and perception, is there not, of the
terminology? What is sustainable design? What is eco-design? We
are still at a stage of trying to unpick some of that.
Dr O'Connor: Can I just give an example? In
Wales we have taken the unique approach—it is the first
of its kind internationally—where we have got all of the
universities, in one region or country, who offer design education
working together to integrate the principles of ecodesign, sustainable
design and social design into mainstream design education. The
four universities are working together to embed ecodesign so that
all undergraduates in Wales over the next five to ten years will
be literate in the principles. Some of our work in Wales, in terms
of capacity-building, is focusing on training the trainer, eg
in this case getting the skills across to the staff and ensuring
that they have the right knowledge. Capacity-building is not just
about human resources but it is about organisational development.
This model is working in Wales—okay it is still at the demonstration
phase—but it is something we can look at expanding because
only a true working partnership can get maximum results.
Q363 Lord Bhattacharyya: Design is
a very wide subject, so there is no point in having a database
for all aspects from fashion design to complex electronic design.
I know, for example, in mechanical design I have British Standards
and I have ISO standards, and all these databases are available—and,
similarly, with electronics. Do you think databases such as those,
from the point of view of environmental sustainability and being
eco-friendly, would be useful for designers?
Dr O'Connor: It would be useful for designers.
Going back, if you look at the population in terms of businesses
in the UK, a lot of these are small companies, and design agencies
are small agencies as well (I am talking about outside London
now, on a regional basis). So there are a lot of databases out
there and lots of useful tools and techniques, but what we have
found from our work is that small businesses do not find those
appropriate for their needs. There is no "one size fits all";
it is about trying to tailor these databases and these tools and
techniques to the needs of individual companies, which is actually
a massive, huge challenge. At the moment, we are working with
four small businesses in Wales, in a demonstration phase, to see
what tools and techniques could be applied to a range of sectors—food
and drink, manufacturing, electronics and low carbon. There are
databases there; they are not comprehensive, and, going back to
cradle to cradle, there are companies out there offering cradle
to cradle support and expertise in getting material information
to the suppliers, but it is either very costly or it is not comprehensive
enough, or not appropriate for the main target audiences, and
these are key things to consider. One of our current programmes
is trying to understand what is appropriate for a small business.
Going back to what I said earlier on, you have got to inspire
the business, you have to have management buy-in and it has to
be part of the business strategy. Then you can seriously start
engaging with these issues.
Q364 Lord Bhattacharyya: Does that
mean that bigger companies do a better job in this area?
Dr O'Connor: They have got more resources and
have more capacity. They do not necessarily all do a better job
but they may have resources on board where they can assign the
cost of a team—personnel, etc—to it. I guess a lot
of the larger companies, such as the Philips', the Panasonics
and the Sonys of this world, would be doing quite a good job in
terms of developing flagship, eco-led products. For small businesses
it can be much more difficult for them to be competitive. Again,
there is no one definitive answer to that, but generally small
businesses would find it more difficult to go down this route,
unless they have support, eg government funded business support.
On that point, what we have tried to do is get large companies
to support small companies on the journey to transfer the knowledge
across—we call it commercial support partnerships. For example,
Panasonic (Cardiff) are working with us to transfer their knowledge
and expertise to a small business in Wales in the electronic sector.
Again, it has to be a two-way relationship for it to last over
time but there is a lot of information that can be gleaned from
large companies, and somehow we need to filter that down to small
businesses so we can remain competitive in a global environment.
Q365 Lord Bhattacharyya: Coming back
to Lord May's question, supposing now you want to teach design
at an undergraduate level. As design is a very wide subject, from
fashion design to industrial, how would you actually develop a
curriculum for that to be taught? If I am a mechanical engineer
I will learn design from the point of view of function and cost.
Similarly, people who work in electronics. The whole area of sustainability
only comes in, or eco-friendly, if there is a hazard. The other
thing is, when it comes to recycling, there is also a very big
problem regarding the cost of recycling, et cetera, so very few
designers pay attention to that. How would you actually create
a culture among designers for that to be progressed through when
they start working?
Dr Bhamra: One of the best ways of doing it
is introducing it as part of good design from the start, for all
their design projects; it is encouraging them to see that design
is not going to work unless you consider this along with cost
and quality—the kind of things they would be doing anyway.
That is what we are trying to introduce with our undergraduates
through all their project work from the first year; that this
is something that is not an optional extra—it is not a thing
you add on at the end—you actually think about it from the
outset. Then they can use their creativity to come up with interesting
solutions which are not just the same design made from recycled
material, which is not going to address the whole issue of sustainability.
That is what we are trying to encourage, so that it is something
they learn from the outset. At the moment it is still going to
be taught in, as Clare said, silos, in the industrial design and
product design courses, and maybe people will do it in fashion
as well, so there is not the overlap between them, but it is being
introduced in that way.
Ms Brass: I would like to clarify that it is
true that design is a very broad issue and covers lots of different
subjects, but design is a strategic subject and it boils down
to a very simple set of processes which can be applied across
all design fields. So if we add sustainability to the mix of that
strategic process then you can really apply it across any form
of design and across any kind of course, even if the subject of
each course might be completely different.
Q366 Lord Howie of Troon: Does sustainable
design actually need somebody called "a designer" and
trained as such? Could not an engineer design a bridge sustainably
or a motorcar, or even an architect design a building sustainably?
Ms Brass: I would say everyone who is in some
way involved in the creative and engineering or designing professions
has a responsibility. We are not saying at all that design is
responsible for saving the world and can do it single-handedly—everyone
has to add their expertise.
Lord Howie of Troon: I have heard that line.
Q367 Lord Crickhowell: Mrs Morris
talked about small initiatives here and there, and good initiatives
and a need to try and get the act together. Then Dr O'Connor made
a pretty bold statement about what his organisation is doing in
Wales. I always like, as a former Secretary of State, to think
that Wales is leading the way. Your mission statement is even
bolder, if I may say so. "EDC actively inspires and leads
the Welsh Assembly Government, public sector organisations and
higher education to enable effective ecodesign in Welsh industry.
We facilitate the open sharing of knowledge and experience with
fresh thinking and integrity." I know something about the
universities in Wales—I was President of Cardiff which has
now got over 20,000 members. My experience of the universities
is that it is not always easy to get them all to work together—even
the organisations within the universities. What does your organisation
actually consist of at the moment? You were only set up in 2006.
How far have you got? I see you are all employees of the University
of Wales Institute at Cardiff. I am not trying to belittle what
you are attempting to do—it sounds rather good—but
I am trying to see if there are lessons for England, and how far
you have gone. Are there lessons that we can learn wider than
you have gone so far? Can you tell us a little more about your
organisation and how you are setting about this?
Dr O'Connor: Okay. We are quite a new organisation,
as you have just said. The key thing, if I focus initially on
the education side, as we have been discussing education quite
a lot, is there are only four universities, at the moment, in
Wales which offer education from a product and industrial design
perspective. We have been building relationships with them over
a period of 13 years, so although the organisation was only set
up in 2006 I and some of my colleagues have been working on building
relationships for much longer. It is all about building meaningful
relationships and trust. You are right; it is very, very difficult
to get universities to work together. That is why, I think, we
are quite pleased to have the four universities sitting round
a table, working together and sharing their knowledge and experience
in moving this agenda forward. The vision we have set out in the
mission is quite ambitious, and we are looking at 10 to 15 years
down the line before we can actually see the fruits of some of
our activities, but in terms of education there are lots of lessons
we can learn—if you work together. What I would like to
do is invite anyone here today around the table, if you have an
opportunity, to come and visit us and look at what we are doing.
I really feel strongly there are a lot of lessons to be learned,
so we would obviously invite you openly to do that. Getting the
universities to work together is a massive challenge; we have
taken the first steps, we are already 12 months into capacity-building
and we are working with the staff in terms of developing their
resources, etc. We are working as a shared resource, which is
the four universities, so a wide-based resource. We are feeding
the lessons learnt from the educators and the other activities
of the centre back to the universities.
Q368 Lord Crickhowell: Are the universities
inputting something? It is not just the Assembly financing a small
unit; this is something in which there is an input of people.
Dr O'Connor: It is not about us, to be honest.
Yes we are putting the platforms together and we have expertise
within the team. The way we see it, the key people to move this
forward are not us but the universities themselves—it is
the staff and the students. Where our priority lies is in putting
platforms together to get people to openly share their knowledge
and experience. If you openly share knowledge and experience you
can move forward really quickly. The key thing is building trust.
Trust is not just about integrity and intent, it is about getting
results. As we get results over time, which we have, the trust
moves up. Although we are part of the University of Wales Institute,
Cardiff, we have moved to a separate location, with a separate
identity, to allow the universities to feel more comfortable to
work together. That has been a hugely positive step forward. We
are now into the next phase of training. So there are lessons
to be learned there. This is a demonstration phase for the first
two years, so initially we are trying to show things on a small
scale. If it works on a small scale we would like to look at how
that can be mainstreamed. With businesses, again, we are not,
unfortunately, tackling all the industrial situations in Wales,
we are working with four companies and these companies have been
selected by us, following a competitive process, including working
with Cardiff University, to identify businesses with design capacity
and growth potential. That is not just about waste reduction,
it is not just about quantifiable issues; it is also qualitative,
it is about investment in staff, in innovation and in training
and development. We are trying to put a platform in place to move
forward. So there are lessons and, as I said, I would love people,
if they have the time, to obviously come and see some of the work.
Q369 Earl of Selborne: I would like
to go back to sustainable design. You told us that it remains,
alas, at the moment, something of an add-on and not embedded within
mainstream design, and you have set out some of the initiatives
which are in-hand to improve skills amongst designers in this
respect. I wondered to what extent there would be opportunities
to increase incentives within companies. For example, in Japan,
we have been told, legislation has been introduced which requires
certain industries to "design for the environment",
and that involves altering designs and production processes to
minimise the impact on the environment. Does this have any application
in the United Kingdom? Is there an opportunity to force progress
within companies by legislation?
Dr Bhamra: Obviously, there is legislation coming
in; the EUP Directive will encourage people to think about that
from an electronic products point of view, and therefore that
will encourage companies to ask their designers to think about
these issues. It is difficult to give a definite answer because
we have got the WEEE Directive, which you would hope would mean
you see lots of changes in the design of electronic products for
recycling, and I suspect that is not happening, having looked
at some recently. So people are finding ways to meet the legislation
without doing anything radical in terms of changing the design
of the product. Legislation means that companies, at least, think
about the subject of sustainability; so that could be one way
forward, as long as it is looked at as a comprehensive approach
to changing and improving design rather than just doing the minimum
to meet the legislation.
Q370 Earl of Selborne: Have you looked
at the End-of-Life-Vehicles Directive? Does that have any possibility
of delivering something?
Dr Bhamra: The interesting thing is that most
cars meet the End-of-Life Vehicles Directive without very much
change to their design, and because the recycling of a vehicle
is often done through a shredding process and separation, the
technology developments have come in the separation of the waste
to try and get high yields in recycling rather than huge changes
in design of the product. That is always a fear: that people will
try and meet the legislation by introducing a bit of technology
at the end of the product's life to extract the material rather
than thinking about: "Let's go back to the starting point
and change the design to make it better at the start". Unfortunately,
I think it is the way that companies will cost things. They do
not cost the whole life of the product when they design it; they
design to the manufacturing cost and then worry about the end-of-life
costs if there is some legislation there. So it is not looked
at comprehensively at the start of the design process.
Q371 Earl of Selborne: Can you give
us any example, then, of either national or European Directives
which have, indeed, promoted sustainable development?
Dr Bhamra: My hope is that the EUP Directive
will do that because it has a comprehensive list of areas that
companies need to consider when designing. We are not exactly
clear how it is going to manifest itself, but in theory this should
work, because they are covering not just end-of-life issues but
energy consumption at the use stage of the product, which is something
that has often been missed out of legislation.
Q372 Earl of Selborne: Are you aware
of whether the Japanese legislation has been more effective than
the EU legislation in this respect?
Dr Bhamra: I could not comment specifically
on that. Looking at the products coming from Japan I am not seeing
any huge differences to the kind of products that are being sold
here. Therefore, I would suspect, maybe not to the degree we would
want.
Q373 Lord Lewis of Newnham: If I
can turn to this particular problem over legislation, after all
the WEEE Directive had within it an IPR feature which has been
virtually dropped. If this had been implemented would this have
been a feature that would have concentrated the mind of the industry,
which would then have come back at the designer, using the analogy
that you have already given us, as to the way these things progress?
There is, of course, the Packaging Directive, which has been in
operation now for quite a number of years, but I am alarmed whenever
I see the Packaging Directive; it does not seem to have influenced
the volume of packaging to any large extent. That may reflect
the ease with which you can actually deal with packaging as a
recovery process, but I would have hoped that it would also have
influenced the amount of materials that were actually involved
in it; we are still getting large boxes with small containers
in the middle of them, and things of this nature. What is your
view on IPR and things of this particular nature? Is this going
to be a way that we can actually influence sustainability?
Mrs Morris: I think you have put your finger
on it; it has absolutely got to be business driven. This has got
to be something that if there is a niche to be developed, if there
is profit to be made, if there is a focus, obviously, for whatever
type of business it is, to actually make a successful business
out of addressing these issues, legislation would then have to
obviously work with that and follow, but if that happens then
I think there is far more chance that any of the design work that
goes on within that business is going to be directed in that way.
If it is legislation it has to be business-focused, business-orientated,
and allow that then to drive the design brief, the design requirements;
everything to do with it, whether it is packaging or any other
aspect of design across the business.
Dr O'Connor: On the legislation side, although
the WEEE Directive, maybe, has not achieved what people like us
would have liked it to achieve, in the short term, I would still
argue it has raised awareness of issues, and that is a positive
step forward. There is a new piece of legislation called the REACH
(Chemicals) Directive, and it is quite a complicated piece of
legislation. Again, I think there are some interesting possibilities
with that, going back to the cradle to cradle discussion earlier
on; they can, maybe, force suppliers to look in more detail at
the materials. Yes, the Packaging Directive has been frustrating—I
am the same as you, it is frustrating when you go into a shop
and there is still all this packaging. Legislation is only part
of the overall jigsaw; businesses have to be inspired to go down
this route, and legislation can be seen to be a reason, perhaps:
"We have to comply for the sake of compliance", whereas
what we need is for businesses to look at opportunities to innovate.
Q374 Lord Bhattacharyya: One of the
great difficulties in relation to legislation is when you said
that it has just got to satisfy business; you would never have
legislation, then, that any business would follow, because compliance
only works where a business has problems of liability. The reason
why, for example, the whole business of emissions started, in
California, was because there were huge liability aspects. Businesses
will never do anything unless there is a cost attached to it;
if they do not follow it they are going to be in trouble. Most
legislation in this area, that I have seen, is not of that nature;
so it is based on the goodwill of the designer and the business.
You have to find ways, and how do you find ways, so that the legislation
is tight enough for them to follow, and if not there is a huge
liability?
Ms Brass: We have quite a lot of legislation
in place, and I agree that legislation is the stick part of the
equation and we need a few more carrots for business. The market
is changing and we are entering into a new, greener economy and
sustainability is a market opportunity, and designers can help
businesses exploit the future of the market and understand new
future scenarios and help businesses move into this new market
and be prepared for it.
Q375 Lord Bhattacharyya: Do you think
the Government could do anything about it by forcing, when it
comes to public supply and public demand, for this to be a part
of the specification of the product?
Ms Brass: Yes.
Mrs Morris: Yes, there is undoubtedly a public
awareness campaign, if you like, that has to be part of this.
If you look at the whole supply chain, obviously, consumers and
customers, who are the public, will be driving businesses and,
therefore, the designers. So there is definitely something that
could be done on that side. I think it is shifting. As Clare said,
there is a change in attitude and interest in this whole area,
but it has a heck of a way to go yet.
Q376 Lord Howie of Troon: There seems
to be some disagreement about the potential for small and medium
enterprises to adopt sustainable design approaches. Some people
tell us that SMEs are able to change quickly, and others, especially
the SEED Foundation, say that they can only react to the demands
of the client, legislation and the increasing cost of energy and
waste management. I wonder if you could clarify my mind on this
area of disagreement. Which is the more appropriate view?
Mrs Morris: I think it depends on what we mean
by SMEs. The question, as I read it here and I think Clare was
talking about it, is that SMEs are design businesses which are
providing that service. Obviously, then, there is a huge, massive
number of SMEs who are the clients, if you like, the businesses
that, potentially, are using design and sometimes not using design.
Where we are talking about a whole range of different types of
industry-sector SMEs, there often is scope for them to move very
swiftly and be very innovative. If you are talking about the design
businesses, it is back to the discussion we have just been having
about how much can they lead as opposed to providing a service
that is driven by the SMEs that they are working for. There are
two sides.
Ms Brass: I would also like to clarify what
we wrote in our paper, which is that it is true that SMEs are
able to sometimes move very quickly and have more flexibility,
but what we are talking about here is the need to drive change.
My point in the paper is that we cannot expect SMEs to be driving
that change. It is very important that SMEs are encouraged to
change but their approach is going to be one of compliance and,
possibly, they will be able to innovate some changes in their
own businesses. Big businesses have a much wider reach because
they can also broach different kinds of communities, whereas SMEs
are very isolated in their activities. It is a little bit like
expecting the leaves of the trees to do everything: the leaves
are very important; the leaves are the life support system of
a tree but unless you have the tree in place then the leaves are
very ineffective.
Q377 Lord Howie of Troon: The roots
matter too!
Ms Brass: The roots matter too. If you focus
on the SMEs you are just focusing on the leaves. The SMEs are
important but they are part of an equation and we need to develop
the other side of the equation as well.
Q378 Lord Howie of Troon: I can quite
see the possibilities for innovation and things of that nature
where the SME is a design consultant. That is a quite separate
thing from the SME as the user of design processes amongst others.
You mentioned the fact that big organisations are better placed.
How do you think innovations and improvements which big businesses
make can be transferred into the smaller ones?
Ms Brass: Through the supply chains, as a very
direct example. SMEs will react to their clients' demands, and
if their clients are demanding different rules in the procurement
then the SMEs will react to that and they will find ways of achieving
those standards. It is big businesses sending out those messages
that is really important.
Dr Bhamra: Also, big businesses can be involved
in the training and education process of designers, if they are
doing them successfully. There are good case studies out there.
Designers need inspiration to see that, actually, their job is
not worthless; they can do this and make a difference. If they
can share their findings with the smaller businesses then that
is useful.
Q379 Lord Bhattacharyya: SMEs are
much more able to innovate because they have not got the hang-ups
of a big company. If you look at the majority of the products
that have come into the market, innovative products have come
out of SMEs. Let me give an example: Dyson. Now it is a big company
but when it started it was a small and medium sized company that
engineered and produced a product which was eco-friendly from
the point of view of the environment. It is a very successful
organisation. There are numerous products like that.
Dr Bhamra: I agree that SMEs are a good place
to innovate, but they do not have the skills and expertise in
sustainability. There are a few examples where SMEs have done
this but that will be down to an individual who is committed and
wants to do this. On a general day-to-day basis, they are often
short of staff and do not have the designers with specialist knowledge,
so they may have a designer who is also doing other roles. Getting
that into the SME and giving them the skills in order to make
these changes in sustainable design is the challenge. Yes, I think
they can do it but it is down to resources.
Dr O'Connor: I slightly disagree in a way because
I think—okay, they are not all the same—there are
a lot of innovative SMEs out there. If you take a particular sector,
for example, like food and drink (I go back to Wales, which is
where I know best) there are loads of small businesses in Wales
innovating in terms of packaging and in terms of new products
in the food and drink sector. Likewise in fashion and textiles,
micro-sized companies like Howies leading the way. That is not
a large company. The key thing is it depends on the culture of
the company, location and the sector in which they operate. I
think I would have to agree that if you have management buy-in,
if the leader of that company has strong leadership then you can
make a massive difference, but you cannot generalise by grouping
SMEs into "innovative" and "not innovative";
I think there are lots of SMEs that can be innovative. If you
go back to what we said earlier on, eco-design, or sustainable
design, is actually good design and good business practice. This
is interesting. I would say there are loads of examples of small
businesses just in Wales alone who are very, very innovative and
who adapt to change, and who do adopt good design practices and
good business practice.
Lord Bhattacharyya: There are examples in the food
sector. I know that in the food sector some of the innovative
products that they have developed are mainly from very small companies.
The shelves of all the supermarkets are full of products which
are done by SMEs; they are not all big companies.
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