Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160-168)
MR JIM
MURPHY MP, MICHAEL
DAVENPORT AND
DAMIAN THWAITES
18 JULY 2007
Q160 Mr. Moss: Is that
support retrospective to a decision that was arrived at bilaterally,
or was there a NATO agreement to approach those countries for
that purpose?
Mr. Murphy: I do not know if Mr.
Davenport wishes to add anything. I understand that there was
consultation and discussion within NATO before the agreements
between the US and the Czech Republic and Poland took place. Michael
Davenport: That was the point that I was going to make.
There was certainly a process of consultation along the way, although,
as the Minister pointed out, the agreements between the United
States and the two countries concerned are bilateral. It is perhaps
worth making the further point that the United States has also
been involving Russia in consultations on the issue at various
points, and is continuing to do so.
Q161 Mr. Moss: Are the
Government in favour of enhancing the role of the partnership
council as a key area for relationships with Russia?
Mr. Murphy: I think it is very
important; as there is aspiration among some non-NATO members,
particularly in Russia's near-abroad, to become more involved
and eventually to become members of NATO, it is absolutely essential
that the dialogue continues. Ultimately, I come back to the
point that while we will, of course, talk in great detail through
that dialogue and the council, Russia will not have a veto over
NATO membership of sovereign states. It is for NATO members to
decide whether other sovereign states should be allowed to join.
Q162 Mr. Moss: But do
the Government now take the view, perhaps in regard to NATO expansion,
however one defines it, that greater attention should be given
to Russian sensitivities on those issues? To reiterate your words,
yes, when we were in Moscow, we did clearly get that view. It
was not only of a new assertiveness on the part of Russia but
of the shame that you talked about during the so-called revolution
and the break up of the Soviet Union. Perhaps President Putin's
popularity is largely down to the fact that he has brought the
Russian Federation to a position where, to use an analogy, they
are batting in the top four of the order again. This small thing
seems to have blown out of all proportion. If we had real cognisance
of these Russian sensitivities, of where they see themselves,
then maybe we would not get into these difficulties.
Mr. Murphy: My response to that
would be that where we can we of course have to work through Russian
sensitivities; when we spoke a month or two ago about Kosovo,
we sought to do in that resolution in New York. But in the context
of NATO, through the Russia-NATO council, it is essential that
we seek to address Russia's legitimate concerns on detail or in
principle. Once we have worked through that process we come to
the point where, despite sensitivities and concerns, Russia would
not have a veto over the process. The underpinning analysis is
that widening the membership of NATO is a force for increased
security and stability, and the more nations that combine in the
NATO process the better.
Q163 Mr. Hamilton: I
move on to international security, and particularly to non-proliferation
and Russia's role on Iran and North Korea. In March 2006, the
FCO identified Russia as "a key player" on non-proliferation
issues. We know that Russia has been reluctant to vote for certain
of the UN Security Council resolutions passed in the last year
and a half on Iran's nuclear programme, but eventually it did
because Moscow felt that a nuclear-armed Iran would be a great
threat to its own security. My question is this. Are we satisfied
that Russia is co-operating in the attempt to stop Iran becoming
nuclear armed? Do we think that Russia's unwillingness to impose
sanctions is a problem?
Mr. Murphy: On this, the UK and
Russia have common cause. Neither of us wishes to see Iran with
an aggressive nuclear capacity and a military nuclear capacity.
Although you are underpinning the fact that the assessment by
the United Nations of some of Russia's actions may be inaccurate,
the fact is that Russia has voted on two separate occasions for
greater co-operation, through the UN, between Iran and the International
Atomic Energy Agency. That is really very important. We can continue
to analyse how we got there, but the fact is that we got there
and Russia voted for both of those resolutions—as it did,
of course, on the resolution on North Korea.
Q164 Mr. Hamilton: I
was just about to ask whether they have been credible on North
Korea, and a good partner in non-proliferation?
Mr. Murphy: They have. They have
less of a formal role in North Korea, but they played a part in
chairing one of the sub-committees and in assisting with financial
transfers and other matters, so they have played an important
part in North Korea—and, importantly, in Iran as well.
Q165 Mr. Hamilton: But
you would agree that they continue to be a very important partner
in non-proliferation as a member of the Security Council?
Mr. Murphy: Absolutely, and not
just as a member of the Security Council but in terms of their
own stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, biological weapons
and so many other things, it is important as a nation state but
also internationally. Russia is one of the key players on non-proliferation.
But on North Korea and Iran, there has been positive engagement
and supportive and effective in the United Nations.
Q166 Chairman: May I
ask one final question? I am conscious that we have kept you a
long time, for which we are very grateful.
Like the European Union, Russia is part of the
Quartet in dealing with the Middle East, and you will be aware
that Russia broke with the Quartet's position by having contact
with Hamas before the British Government, which related to the
Alan Johnston hostage issue. Do you think that Russia could have
a more active role in helping with the Middle East peace process
and be an important contributor assisting the Middle East envoy
and our own efforts through the EU and directly?
Mr. Murphy: I think that we could
all be more active. We would all like to be more effective. I
do not wish to stray on to the territory of the Minister responsible—
Q167 Chairman: As much
as I am tempting you.
Mr. Murphy: I am not going to.
As you know from past experience, we both have a keen interest
in and, on more than one occasion, a common view on this, and,
of course, have been to the Middle East with Mr. Hamilton and
Mrs. Osborne in a different capacity. Russia has a crucial role
as part of the Quartet and we would like it to do all that it
can, as we all must, in supporting Mahmoud Abbas and progressive
forces among the Palestinians, who are reasonable and wish to
see a two-state solution. Russia, can, should, and I am confident
will be a positive influence in that process.
Q168 Chairman: May I
thank you, Minister, and your colleagues, Mr. Thwaites and Mr.
Davenport? This has been a very useful session. We have covered
almost every continent. We also went to the Arctic at one point.
This has been your first appearance before the Committee and we
have appreciated your contributions and your frankness. We look
forward to seeing you in the future, possibly even in the summer.
I am sure that we will continue to be engaged in a dialogue with
you on this matter and others over the coming months.
Mr. Murphy: Thank you, and I look
forward to coming to New York to give evidence to your Committee.
I understand that that is where you will be in the summer.
Chairman: No, no, no.
Mr. Murphy: Where will you be?
Chairman: We will be here.
Mr. Murphy: No! I thought that
you were off to New York.
Chairman: No, we are going
to New York in October to the UN.
Mr. Murphy: Ah well, that is the
summer for me still.
Chairman: We have a lot of work to do
before then.
Mr. Murphy: It might be helpful
if I read this statement into the record. It was issued in Brussels
on 18 July and it is a declaration by the Presidency, on behalf
of the European Union, on the Litvinenko case: "The Presidency
recalls its statement of 1 June on the murder of Alexander Litvinenko,
a grave and reckless crime. The EU expresses its disappointment
at Russia's failure to co-operate constructively with the UK authorities.
The EU underlines the importance of urgent and constructive co-operation
by the Russian Federation on this matter. The EU hopes for a satisfactory
solution to this matter, which raises important questions of common
interest to EU member states."
Chairman: Thank you.
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