Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-126)
DEPARTMENT FOR
ENVIRONMENT, FOOD
AND RURAL
AFFFAIRS & THE
CARBON TRUST
5 DECEMBER 2007
Q120 Mr Davidson: You do focus. You
break state aid rules then.
Mrs Ghosh: No.
Q121 Mr Davidson: That is fine.
Mrs Ghosh: No.
Mr Delay: We market actively to
sectors and we can market actively to sectors. We can go to events
around the country, we can publicise, we can do the marketing
activity that we do which makes our offer available to businesses.
Those businesses are aware of what we have to offer and come to
us. Your point around the £20,000 being an absolute cap set
by the European Commission that applies to everybody from Tesco's
to the corner shop, actually £20,000 is the most from a value
for money point of view we would ever wish to put into a relationship
because at that point we can normally make the case to the company
they should be paying for anything above that. In practice, if
you look at table 11 on page 20, you will see that the cost to
the Carbon Trust of the vast majority of our services, be they
standard surveys or loans, is of the order of £4,000 not
£20,000. That is principally on the basis of value for money.
Q122 Mr Davidson: Dealing with Fred's
Corner Shop and Tesco, you are perfectly happy that you do not
want any relaxation of the upper limit under any circumstances
for anybody?
Mr Delay: I think at the moment
we are finding that we get very good value for money by working
with the £20,000 limit that we have. In part it gives us
a very clear basis to say to the company that is all we are going
to do, now if you want to work with us, we will work on the basis
of you funding it. Companies are willing to do that increasingly.
I see no reason to try and increase that at this point if value
for money is what we are concerned with. If we want to increase
our market penetration, it is in how we can work effectively with
smaller businesses and medium-sized businesses. We are looking
at that very actively.
Q123 Mr Davidson: You cannot force
it on them, of course.
Mr Delay: We can market ourselves,
we can make ourselves available to them in a way that they understand.
Q124 Mr Davidson: You can focus on
them but not focus on them, I think I understand that. The final
point I want to ask is because you are considered to be a generally
good thing, as it were, nice and cuddly and fluffy and so on,
to what extent do you think you get away with perhaps less efficient
practices than, say, somebody who was more critically viewed?
It is the first time we have looked at yourselves. I am not particularly
impressed by some of the things. I wonder whether or not you are
allowed to spend some money on some general feel good stuff which
is not really justified in commercial terms. Have you found that
freedom to waste money quite helpful?
Mr Delay: I do not believe we
have wasted any money at all. We have built a market position
which allows us to be effective and deliver value for money which
is exactly what the NAO review has concluded. We regard the offer
that we have to all businesses and public sector organisations
in the UK as being effective. I am not aware of anything that
I would describe as waste.
Q125 Mr Williams: Before we finish,
can I draw your attention to paragraph 2.20 on page 21. May I
say that the overall message of this paragraph is favourable but
there are things which need to be touched on. It starts very favourably
pointing out that: "Overall consultants were satisfied with
the Carbon Trust's ability to deliver ... savings. 69% were satisfied
or very satisfied ... 79% believed the Carbon Trust's services
were effective in helping their clients to reduce carbon dioxide
emissions". So that is a very positive set, part of that
paragraph. Can I ask you about two points contained in the second
part, reflecting not as overwhelming a body of opinion. The first
one is that: "47% of the consultants... were dissatisfied
with the inflexibility of the report templates and other materials
..." which is a comment then reflected lower down by the
Energy Services and Technology Association which was concerned
about the standardisation of reports which limits the usefulness
of its content. What is your response to that particular comment,
two different sources?
Mr Delay: Yes. I mentioned earlier
we have worked very hard to improve the timeliness, the quality
and the consistency of the advice that we give to businesses.
As part of doing that we have introduced a new consultant accreditation
scheme. We have gone through the process of reaccrediting all
of our consultants. In a sense I am happy that if there are any
concerns it is on the consultants' side not on our customers'
side where the satisfaction ratings are higher still. The point
though is well made and we do listen carefully to what consultants
tell us and that is appropriate, of course, because we want to
get the best relationship with them and, indeed, between them
and our customers. We have relaxed some of the strictures that
we put on formatting the reports because we have acknowledged
that those were unnecessarily restrictive. We started with a very
free hand, we pulled it across to being quite a clearly defined
template and now we have relaxed that back to give consultants
greater freedom to express what their opportunities are, what
their advice would be to the customer directly, so we have made
that change already.
Q126 Mr Williams: That leads in to
the second part which is two-thirds of the way down where it says:
"39% expressed dissatisfaction with the Carbon Trust's willingness
to listen to their ideas ...". Why are you unwilling to listen
to their ideas or are you, would you dispute that?
Mr Delay: I would dispute that.
We listen to the ideas, advice and counsel that we get from a
very wide range of stakeholders, from our customers, from our
partners, from the consultants that we work with directly. We
spend a lot of time listening, it is the only way in which we
can provide an appropriate service at lowest cost to our customers.
There is a reality that we are a public good company and many
of the people who will come to us as stakeholders also have commercial
interests in the market. We need to recognise, therefore, that
they are representing members often with commercial interests.
We are a public good company. First and foremost we have our mission
to deliver and we have to do it in a value for money way.
Mr Williams: Thank you very much. May
I say in summing up that the most frightening part of the afternoon
was to hear Mr Davidson describe you as "cuddly". It
has been a very positive hearing and, if I may say so, it is very
clear you are both committed to what you are trying to achieve.
Thank you both for the clarity of the hearing.
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