Wednesday 24 October 2007
The House met at 9.45 am
The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:
Hayman, B. (Lord Speaker)
Acton, L.
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Addington, L.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
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Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Best, L.
Bhatia, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Blaker, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bowness, L.
Boyd of Duncansby, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
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Bradley, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnett, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Surbiton, B.
Campbell-Savours, L.
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Page 867 2006-07 Volume 240
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cathcart, E.
Chidgey, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cotter, L.
Courtown, E.
Coussins, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Crisp, L.
Croham, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Darzi of Denham, L.
Davidson of Glen Clova, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dear, L.
Dearing, L.
Deech, B.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
D’Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Eatwell, L.
Eccles, V.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Ford, B.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Garden of Frognal, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gavron, L.
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Geddes, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goodlad, L.
Goschen, V.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
Imbert, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Janvrin, L.
Jay of Ewelme, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Jones, L.
Jones of Birmingham, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jordan, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kingsmill, B.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
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Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Lindsay, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Luce, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Malloch-Brown, L.
Mance, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mawson, L.
Maxton, L.
May of Oxford, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Montrose, D.
Moran, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Morrow, L.
Moser, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murphy, B.
Naseby, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Neuberger, B.
Neuberger of Abbotsbury, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
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Page 868 2006-07 Volume 240 Back to top
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O’Cathain, B.
O’Neill of Bengarve, B.
O’Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Ouseley, L.
Oxburgh, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Patel, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plumb, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quin, B.
Quinton, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Ramsbotham, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rochester, Bp.
Rodger of Earlsferry, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Rosser, L.
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Rosslyn, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Foscote, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwell and Nottingham, Bp.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Steinberg, L.
Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
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Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Triesman, L.
Trimble, L.
Trumpington, B.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Tyler, L.
Uddin, B.
Vincent of Coleshill, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Gestingthorpe, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warsi, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
West of Spithead, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.
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Prayers were read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester
Judicial Business
For judicial business see below.
The House adjourned. The House resumed.
Select Committee Report
1 Statutory Instruments
The following Report from the Joint Committee was made and ordered to be printed:
28th Report on certain statutory instruments, including the following affirmative instruments:
Draft Armed Forces (Redress of Individual Grievances) Regulations 2007
Draft Armed Forces (Service Complaints Commissioner) Regulations 2007
Draft Legislative and Regulatory Reform (Regulatory Functions) Order 2007. (HL Paper 191)
Page 869 2006-07 Volume 240 Back to top
Public Business
2 Debt: consumer credit A question was asked by Baroness Miller of Hendon and answered by Lord Jones of Birmingham.
3 Royal Mail A question was asked by Viscount Bridgeman and answered by Lord Jones of Birmingham.
4 People trafficking A question was asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno and answered by Lord West of Spithead.
5 Diplomats A question was asked by Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean and answered by Lord Malloch-Brown.
6 Legal Services Bill [HL] The bill was returned from the Commons with certain Commons amendments not insisted on but with amendments proposed in lieu thereof; with another Commons amendment not insisted on, with the Lords amendment in lieu thereof disagreed to and with amendments proposed in lieu thereof; with a Lords amendment to a Commons amendment disagreed to but with an amendment proposed in lieu thereof; and with the remaining Lords amendments agreed to. The Commons amendments were ordered to be printed. (HL Bill 109)
7 Serious Crime Bill [HL] The Commons amendments were considered. Commons amendments were agreed to. A motion to disagree with a Commons amendment was disagreed to (see division list). The remaining Commons amendments were agreed to.
The House adjourned. The House resumed.
8 Child protection A question was asked by Baroness Walmsley and, after debate, answered by Lord Adonis.
The House adjourned at 6.16pm until Thursday 25 October at 11.00am.
Papers
All statutory instruments laid before the House are accompanied by an Explanatory Memorandum presented by command of Her Majesty, unless otherwise indicated.
Command Papers
The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty:
1 Customs and Excise—Agreement between the United Kingdom and the Isle of Man on Customs and Excise and associated matters. (7238)
2 Science and Technology—Government reply to the Fifth Report of the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee on Personal Internet Security. (7234)
Judicial Business
1 Yeda Research and Development Company Limited (Appellants) v Rhone-Poulenc Rorer International Holdings Inc and others (Respondents) It was moved by Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe on behalf of Lord Hoffmann that the 52nd Report from the Appellate Committee be agreed to; the motion was agreed to. It was ordered and adjudged that the appeal be allowed; that the Order of Her Majesty’s Court of Appeal of 31 July 2006 and also the Order of Mr Justice Lewison in the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice of 16 February 2006 be set aside; that the decision of the Hearing Officer, Mr R C Kennell, Deputy Director acting for the Comptroller, of 20 October 2005 be restored; and that the question of costs in this House and in the courts below be adjourned in order that the parties may make written submissions within 14 days. [2007] UKHL 43
2 Somerville (AP) (Original Appellant and Cross-respondent) v Scottish Ministers (Original Respondents and Cross-appellants) (Scotland)
Page 870 2006-07 Volume 240 Back to top
3 Blanco (AP) (Original Appellant and Cross-respondent) v Scottish Ministers (Original Respondents and Cross-appellants) (Scotland)
4 Henderson (AP) (Original Appellant and Cross-respondent) v Scottish Ministers (Original Respondents and Cross-appellants) (Scotland)
5 Ralston (AP) (Original Appellant and Cross-respondent) v Scottish Ministers (Original Respondents and Cross-appellants) (Scotland)
(Consolidated Appeals)
It was moved by Lord Hope of Craighead that the 53rd Report from the Appellate Committee be agreed to; the motion was agreed to. It was ordered and adjudged that with regard to the first, fourth and fifth issues, as set out in the Statement of Facts and Issues, the consolidated appeal of Somerville, Henderson, Blanco and Ralston be allowed, that with regard to the second issue, as set out in the said Statement of Facts and Issues, the cross-appeal of the Scottish Ministers be allowed, and that no order be made in this House in respect of the third issue, as set out in the Statement of Facts and Issues; that it be declared that a claim for damages as just satisfaction in respect of an act by a member of the Scottish Executive which is outside devolved competence because it is incompatible with a Convention right is not subject to the provisions of section 7(5) of the Human Rights Act 1998; that, in the appeal of Henderson, the Interlocutor of the First Division of the Inner House of the Court of Session in Scotland of 3 November 2006 be recalled in so far as it sustained the plea of time bar so far as directed to the first four periods of segregation and excluded the appellant’s averments in respect of those periods from probation; that, in the consolidated appeal of Somerville, Henderson, Blanco and Ralston, the Interlocutors of the First Division of the Inner House of the Court of Session in Scotland of 3 November 2006 with respect to each appellant be recalled in so far as they excluded from probation in each petition the words “disproportionate et separatim” where they appear in statement 3(a) and repelled the first plea in law so far as relating to proportionality; that, in the consolidated appeal of Somerville, Henderson, Blanco and Ralston, the Interlocutors of the First Division of the Inner House of the Court of Session in Scotland of 3 November 2006 with respect to each appellant be recalled in so far as they adhered to the terms of the Lord Ordinary’s Interlocutors of 8 February 2005 in which the Lord Ordinary refused to order that the documentary material covered by PII certificates be produced for inspection by the court or to the appellants, and further that it be directed that the said documentary material be produced for inspection by the Lord Ordinary; that, in the consolidated appeal of Somerville, Henderson, Blanco and Ralston, save for those parts of the Interlocutors of the First Division of the Inner House of the Court of Session in Scotland of 3 November 2006 which have been recalled by this House, the said Interlocutors with respect to each appellant be affirmed; and that the question of the costs of the consolidated appeal and cross-appeal to this House be adjourned in order that the parties may make written submissions within 14 days. [2007] UKHL 44
6 R (on the application of M) (FC) (Appellant) v Her Majesty’s Treasury (Respondents) and two other actions (England) The appeal of M, A and MM was presented and it was ordered that in accordance with Standing Order VI the statement and appendix thereto be lodged on or before 5 December (lodged 23 October).
7 R (on the application of M) (FC) (Respondent) v Slough Borough Council (Appellants) It was ordered that the appeal be dismissed in accordance with Standing Order V, the appellants having failed to give security for costs by 14 March.
8 Mbasogo (President of the State of Equatorial Guinea) and others (Appellants) v Logo Limited and others (Respondents) It was ordered that the appeal be dismissed in accordance with Standing Order VI, the appellants having failed to lodge the statement and appendix by 10 October.
9 Appeal Committee The 87th Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made:
In re M and another (children) That leave to appeal be given; that the petition of appeal be lodged forthwith; and that all documents be lodged by 7 November notwithstanding Standing Order VI.
Page 871 2006-07 Volume 240 Back to top
Division
Serious Crime Bill [HL]
Division
Lord Thomas of Gresford moved an amendment to the motion that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 32 to leave out “agree” and insert “disagree”. The House divided:
| Contents
52 |
| Not-Contents
148 |
Contents
Addington, L. [Teller]
Ampthill, L.
Barker, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Burnett, L.
Chidgey, L.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Dykes, L.
Elles, B.
Erroll, E.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Glasgow, E.
Greaves, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hylton, L.
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Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Marlesford, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Neuberger, B.
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Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Roper, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sharples, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Tyler, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
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Not Contents
Acton, L.
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B. (Lord President)
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Boyd of Duncansby, L.
Bradley, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Condon, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
D’Souza, B.
|
Darzi of Denham, L.
Davidson of Glen Clova, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dearing, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
|
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Ewelme, L.
Joffe, L.
Jones, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Kilclooney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Malloch-Brown, L.
Mar, C.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murphy, B.
O’Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Ouseley, L.
Paul, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prosser, B.
Puttnam, L.
Quin, B.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
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Page 872 2006-07 Volume 240 Back to top
Richard, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
|
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
|
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
West of Spithead, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
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