Examination of Witnesses (Questions 560
- 579)
560. MS LIEVEN: We have noted the question,
my Lord, and I will ask Mr Berryman to deal with it.
561. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I was
looking at Ealing Broadway, as a downtown Ealing resident in Southall.
I could not quite understand it. It is a mixture of escalators
and lifts, I presume?
(Dr Maynard) Yes, it will be a mixture of escalators and
lifts, and those sort of curvy thingies—those green square
jobbies—they are stairs. Are they stairs or escalators?
Keith Berryman is probably better at answering this one, too.
562. MS LIEVEN: They are stairs, my Lord.
563. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: The
main thing is, having used it frequently, it is a significant
improvement from where we are now.
(Dr Maynard) Yes. Ealing Broadway is currently an absolute
no-go for anyone who cannot manage steps.
564. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: Are there
any travelators involved anywhere in this network? How are they
regarded, in terms of compatibility with handicap use?
565. MS LIEVEN: There are no travelators,
to the best of my knowledge, anywhere on the Crossrail network,
and I know a little about travelators, so I think I would know.
566. BARONESS FOOKES: Dr Maynard referred
to the possible use of a taxi by someone where provision could
not be made for step-free access. How would that work in practice?
I presume you would be using a more limited idea of impaired mobility
because you referred to the European definition, which includes
everyone encumbered with prams and heavy luggage. They are not
going to get taxis, are they?
(Dr Maynard) What I referred to was the provision in the
Disability Discrimination Act that would apply to those who are
substantially disadvantaged under the Disability Discrimination
Act. What I said was it is current practice in the national rail
network where there are issues like that, and it certainly came
up in Keith Roads v Central Trains Limited. That was one of the
cases where taxi provision was—
567. Where it is practised already, does it
actually work? I presume you have to give advance notice.
(Dr Maynard) Actually, you have to give advance notice on
the national rail network anyway. It is always best to give advance
notice, but it is not absolutely vital, depending on which station
you are talking about. That is really about the kind of half-green
blobs (if I can put it that way) that are at the other end from
today's issue.
568. While you are with us it seemed a good
opportunity to inquire into these matters.
(Dr Maynard) Indeed, indeed. Yes, you would need to give
notice.
569. It sounds like a brilliant idea but sometimes
brilliant ideas do not actually translate into practice when you
are travelling on X day at X time.
(Dr Maynard) Yes. I am not sure I would call it such a brilliant
idea; as a way of alleviating a problem.
570. Overcoming a problem.
(Dr Maynard) Yes.
571. BARONESS FOOKES: Thank you.
572. LORD JONES OF CHELTENHAM: My Lord
Chairman, on slide 9 we have statistics that the number of step-free
journeys on Crossrail is going to be 93 per cent.[19]
Looking forward to our discussion with London Borough of Newham,
of course, we have got two empty red circles there. Do we have
any figures for the number of step-free journeys of those people
getting on or off in the London Borough of Newham? Presumably
it will not be 93 per cent.
573. MS LIEVEN: We do not, in front of
us, my Lord. I suspect the analysis could be done by factoring
the Newham catchment areas into the provision of stations within
Newham. If one takes the example of Maryland, when Mr Berryman
gives evidence he will show you that the natural catchment area
for Maryland is entirely overlapped by the catchment area for
Stratford and Forest Gate. So the fact Maryland does not have
PRM accessibility may actually have no effect, or a miniscule
effect, on the percentage figure within the London Borough of
Newham—if that makes sense—because it is so close
to Stratford. I am sure we could produce the equivalent figure
for Newham, but I doubt we would be able to produce it today.
So perhaps we should put that on a shopping list for a note to
be produced on that figure.
574. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I was
going to return to that statistic, because it seemed to me, if
you looked at it and rated it against other networks, that 93
per cent must be top of the range.
(Dr Maynard) Absolutely over the top of the range. It is
unheard of.
575. That was one point I wanted to make so
that we do understand the context within which we are discussing
the efforts that Crossrail have made. The other one has been addressed
by our learned counsel here, but it is not just looking at it
in relation to Maryland; you have to look at what access people
have got to the other stations as well. People with disabilities,
obviously, make an assessment of what is in their best interest
when they are making a journey, to a certain extent, unlike most
of us. They have to make a planned journey, more or less, every
time, to one extent or another. The point I am going to ask you
is, in that context, is it right what counsel has just said to
us, that if you look at it holistically, taking into account Stratford
and Forest Gate, would the fact that we cannot also include Maryland
be regarded as wholly bad in the circumstances?
(Dr Maynard) As a user of the rail network I would not regard
it as wholly bad. If I did I would not be here. There are going
to be some people who would find it unacceptable but, actually,
I think the majority of people would regard it as entirely acceptable—in
particular because one of the other ways that disabled people
get to stations is in their own vehicles, in their own cars, and
Stratford has disabled parking available. So quite a lot of people
are likely to use Stratford as a travel solution anyway.
576. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Ninety-three
per cent of journeys will be step-free—that is projected
for 2017, is it not? That is the projection.
(Dr Maynard)
That is the projection, yes. When Crossrail opens 93 per cent
of the journeys that people make will be step-free.
577. It is based on the number of people with
disabilities at that time.
(Dr Maynard) No. This is the number of
journeys on Crossrail. So this is the whole population; it is
people travelling from one station to another on the Crossrail
network.
578. Has any work been done on the likely growth
that might take place as the population ages and the number of
people with disabilities grows too?
(Dr Maynard) I do not know the answer
to that question. I am sorry.
579. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Could
we have an answer to that?
19 Crossrail Ref: P8, Future Transport Access in London
(LINEWD-XR4-009) Back
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