Examination of Witnesses (Questions 3320
- 3339)
3320. I can see that. You will pardon me because
I am a lay person pursuing this but what sort of impact would
it have? If we took one sort of building that was constructed
in one fashion obviously you would get one sort of impact with
your stresses and strains; and now we have got this type of building;
we have got this Georgian terrace with a particular type of construction.
What I am trying to ascertain is: is there likely to be more of
an impact in these circumstances based on previous experiences
of tunnelling under similar sorts of structures?
(Mr Berryman) No, my Lord, it does not make any difference,
the fact that the buildings are old.
3321. It seems counterintuitive, does it not?
(Mr Berryman) The fact that the buildings are old there are
two aspects of that which I think are of interest. First of all,
they will have moved quite a bit during their life. We know that
London is going up and down all the time and it is quite difficult
to know exactly what movements they will have experienced over
the years, but they will have experienced some movements. Secondly,
some of them have been fairly robustly attacked with a sledgehammer
during times of their existence. The fact that they are still
standing is of interest. It is not particularly relevant to this
but it is of interest. There are those who feel that this kind
of lime mortar building is actually more flexible than a Portland
cement building. I am not sure whether I could go along with that,
but there is certainly a school of thought that thinks that.
3322. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: I am
amazed to hear that the different type of building does not make
any difference. Why then are there problems with timber frame
buildings?
(Mr Berryman) I am afraid I am not an expert on timber frames.
3323. There are problems over insurance and
a whole range of things, and selling them sometimes.
(Mr Berryman) I think those are related to the movement of
the timber, my Lord, rather than the movement of the ground.
3324. I do not know!
(Mr Berryman) I am afraid I am not really aware of that problem.
3325. MR MOULD: I think thankfully, as
far as I know, there are no timber frame buildings.
(Mr Berryman) Not here!
3326. I was going to say "within the Spitalfields
area"! I just want to carry this line of thinking forward
a little further if we can. We see there in relation to the tensile
strain criterion, if I can call it that, the classification for
damage in relation to this building has been assessed as negligible.
Is that correct?
(Mr Berryman) That is correct.
3327. That being the case, can you assist the
Committee, and assume for the purpose of this question if I may,
that there is limited knowledge of the detailed make-up of the
internal features of this particular building at this stage?
(Mr Berryman) Yes.
3328. That being the conclusion in having regard
to the tensile strain, what is the significance to consideration
of the risk of damage due to ground movement in relation to this
building of the finding as regards tensile strain, and the question
of what may later be found about the internal features of the
building?
(Mr Berryman) As I said earlier on, the tensile strain really
determines the amount of cracking, if any, which is going to take
place in a building. The cracks almost always are the things which
lead to problems in other features. The kinds of movements we
are talking about here are very, very small. Issues such as the
beams which Mr Wheeler put up, which have been pre-stressed to
strengthen them and so on, would not particularly be affected
by this level of movement. These are very, very small movements.
I think it might be slightly misleading for the Committee that
this figure of maximum settlement 26mm is on the board. It is
worth bearing in mind that the significant factor is not the absolute
settlement, it is the differential settlement. If the whole of
Spitalfields went down by 26mm no-one would notice.
3329. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: All
at once?
(Mr Berryman) All at once, no-one would notice. The fact
of the matter is, this 26mm is over a very wide area, and so the
differential settlements are very small.
3330. MR MOULD: In relation to a point
my Lady asked you, you mentioned about the significance of the
defect survey that will be carried out in advance of the works,
and the fact that that will involve internal inspection of these
buildings?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, that is right.
3331. Let us assume that when that survey is
carried out it is found that there is some internal feature which
it is judged at that stage merits some protective measure being
taken, such as the strengthening of a joist or something of that
kind. Do you see the point?
(Mr Berryman) I do.
3332. Then the question arises that these are
listed buildings, they are sensitive and they are subject to close
control over alterations to their structure, internal or external,
that might materially affect their character. You are familiar
with that?
(Mr Berryman) Indeed.
3333. How would we propose to ensure that any
such strengthening works of that kind that might be required are
sensitive to the character of the building and, as far as possible,
maintain that character for future generations?
(Mr Berryman) There are two situations there which I think
arise: one is where it might be necessary to do some temporary
shoring-up or propping-up of part of a building whilst the tunnel
boring continues; and the other is where some permanent remedial
measure may be required. I think in the case of both of them we
would obviously involve the owner, and we would involve English
Heritage as needed; but the Bill does give us powers to disapply
some parts of the listed building consent, so we would have a
reasonable freedom of action in that case. If we do disapply those
parts we have to get the local authority's consent, and they will
of course consult English Heritage and the like as statutory consultees
when we apply under Schedule 8 of the Bill for that permission.
3334. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: What
happens if there is a disagreement between you? Who has the final
word on this?
(Mr Berryman) I think the Bill actually sets that out. I
think it is the local authority but I am not 100 per cent and
would need to check that.
3335. If you say you wanted to disapply and
they say "In these circumstances, no, we feel you shouldn't"?
(Mr Berryman) No, my Lord, I think the Bill actually disapplies
in all cases. There is not a judgment to be made on that. The
judgment to be made is in what remedial measures or what form
of heritage treatment is required; and on that I think the local
authority has the final approval.
3336. BARONESS FOOKES: That is not disapplication
in the true sense, is it, if you spot something and say, "It
is disapplied but we can't do X, Y and Z"?
(Mr Berryman) The procedure is actually substantially the
same as application for listed building consent. I am afraid we
have not actually been through it yet, but the procedure I believe
is slightly different in that we do not have to show a reason
why we need to do the works but just have to agree what the works
should be.
3337. MR MOULD: My Lady, my recollection
is that these matters are dealt with under the Schedule 7 powers,
which are the powers that local planning authorities have in relation
to approval of detailed aspects of the works. Certainly, picking
up on your Ladyship's point, my understanding is that in relation
to matters where local planning authorities have conferred upon
them rights of detailed approval of aspects of the work where,
for example, heritage issues arise and they would expect ordinarily
to consult English Heritage, we would expect that that would happen
under the terms of the Bill just as it would outside it, so the
upshot is that both the local authorities and English Heritage
would be closely involved in scrutinising remedial measures or
protective measures of the kind that Mr Berryman has mentioned
in his last answer. Mr Berryman, you touched on the Settlement
Deed and we may need to say a bit more about that to the Committee
tomorrow, but the basic qualifying criteria for a Settlement Deed,
that is to say a direct contract between the Promoter and the
building owner in relation to a building which is potentially
affected by ground movement from the works, is that the deed is
available to the property owner whose property lies within 30
metres on plan of the running tunnels, that is right, is it not?
(Mr Berryman) That is correct.
3338. LORD SNAPE: Sorry?
The Petition of Nicholas Morse and others
3339. MR MOULD: Within 30 metres on plan
of the running tunnels, and I will be corrected if I am wrong,
but my clear understanding is that with regards to the Petitioners
who are before your Lordships' House today, if they are the owners
of the properties which have been raised for consideration by
your Lordships, they certainly lie within that distance.
(Mr Berryman) I am not sure if they all do,
my Lords, I think one or two of them are outside that but they
are also well outside the settlement zone as well.
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