Examination of Witnesses (Questions 4800
4800. CHAIRMAN: I have no idea. Mr Elvin,
you were going to call Mr Berryman.
4801. MR ELVIN: Yes. There are two matters
scheduled for this afternoon, if that is convenient, to call Mr
Berryman to deal with some of the general issues, and then Mr
Mould is going to close on the settlement issues he said he would
deal with yesterday.
4802. CHAIRMAN: That would be very helpful.
BERRYMAN, recalled Further
examined by MR ELVIN
4803. Mr Berryman, I am very grateful that you
have left your sick bed to come and keep matters on timetable.
Mr Berryman, of course, is familiar to the Committee. Mr Berryman,
I want to deal with the following issues with you. I want to discuss
with you the case for the Whitechapel Station just so that it
is on the record. Secondly, I would like to look at lorry routing
with you and control of lorries; thirdly, control of construction
works, particularly in the Hanbury Street area; and, fourthly,
the reason for the Hanbury Street shaft and where any possible
review might lead. Perhaps we can start, and it may be appropriate
to ask the Committee to go and look at the model with Mr Berryman
at some point during this time. Mr Berryman, tell us the general
reason why Whitechapel is an important component of the Crossrail
(Mr Berryman) The primary benefit of the Whitechapel
Station in the context of the overall transport system for London
is that it provides a very important strategic interchange. It
allows for interchange with the East London line, and I think
we have a slide of that at 33, which is currently under construction
from north London down to Croydon and will be an important route
in the network when it is complete.
It also provides a linkand there is a picture of the line
of the East London line and we cross here (indicating) at Whitechapel,
and the idea is to have an interchange with that line. You can
see from this plan that stage one is coloured in yellow. It collects
from a very large part of south London and if stage two is built
it will be an even more effective collector. The Whitechapel Station
provides a very important interchange with that route. In addition,
if you could put 34 up.
It provides an important connection with the District line which
is here (indicating), and with the Hammersmith and City Line,
which runs round here (indicating), so it provides links for passengers
coming from the eastern side to get to destinations in the northern
part of central London and in the southern part of central London,
so it has a very important function as a connection point. We
would expect that about two-thirds of the passengers who have
used Whitechapel Station would not ever come out of the front
door. They would just go from one railway line to another. In
addition, it provides significant regeneration benefits for the
area. Obviously, as the members of the Committee have visited
the area, they will be aware that it is an area in need of some
regeneration, and it is expected that this railway would provide
a significant impetus towards that regeneration. Finally, although
not by any means less important, it will improve the accessibility
in the area. Accessibility really takes two forms. We have said
a lot already about accessibility for PRMs (persons of restricted
mobility) and members of the Committee will have seen on their
visit that there is not any at the moment. When this station is
rebuilt there will be significant improvement in that. It is also
accessibility in the sense that it provides accessibility for
people living in the area to other parts of London which would
currently be difficult to reach. The PRM issue is quite significant
due to the presence of the Royal London Hospital which is across
the road and which, as you will be aware, is undergoing a major
expansion and redevelopment, and certainly that is an important
factor to be taken into account.
4804. Could we look briefly at the predicted
passenger flows, please, which is exhibit 39?
There we have the sorts of passenger flows which are predicted
(Mr Berryman) That is correct, and there is
an interesting point on here. The way that this works is that
it shows how many people from the District Line, 2,900, will be
going out through the station entrance and so on, and how many
people from Crossrail will be going to the District Line, 4,800.
4805. CHAIRMAN: There will not be many
in 2016, will there?
(Mr Berryman) There will not be any in 2016, my Lord. This
chart was prepared when 2016 was the opening date. I think this
should really be read as "On opening" rather than "at
2016". One note of interest is that 1,200 people will be
coming in on Crossrail and going out on Crossrail. They are basically
people who are coming from the Shenfield branch and crossing over
the platform to go down to Canary Wharf, and so there is a significant
number of people who do that. The total number of passengers,
35,300, means that there are three stations on the route which
are less busy than Whitechapel. Whitechapel is about the mid range
of all the stations on the route.
4806. MR ELVIN: How does the use of Crossrail
flows compare, for example, with the proposed station at Woolwich
or at Bond Street?
(Mr Berryman) It is higher than both of those, significantly
higher, in fact.
4807. In terms of the connections, would it
help just to go to the model, Mr Berryman?
(Mr Berryman) It would, Mr Elvin. I have been dying to show
their Lordships this model. It has been sitting here all week.
Tomorrow morning the Duke of Kent is paying a visit to our offices
and our Chairman is very anxious that the model should go back
to be explained to him, so I would be very grateful if your Lordships
could have a look at it.
4808. CHAIRMAN: Of course it can go,
yes. Doubtless we will still be here next week.
(Mr Berryman) We can bring it back then, my Lord.
4809. MR ELVIN: Mr Berryman, would you
like the Committee to come and look?
(Mr Berryman) If possible.
(The Committee were then invited to look
at the model)
4810. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Elvin?
4811. MR ELVIN: Mr Berryman, perhaps
we could now just turn to the lorry routing issue and have the
lorry routing plan put up, which is XR5E-004.
Here, we have a plan showing the proposed lorry routes from the
Burdett Road lorry-holding area which we see to the east, just
south of Mile End. There are routes proposed to Stepney and to
Hanbury Street because there is a worksite at Stepney Green as
well as the worksites at Whitechapel Station and at Hanbury Street.
How is it proposed that this should work in practice, Mr Berryman?
(Mr Berryman) Well, the basic idea is that this
area, the holding area, is used for stacking lorries which have
come in and need to go up to the site. There is room here for
about 25 lorries to be parked, and we have taken powers in the
Bill to use that bit of the road as a lorry- holding area. The
logistics for the project are still being worked out in fine detail,
but the intention is to have two sites well outside London, outside
the M25 area, which will be used as staging points for deliveries
and so on to the site, so lorries will be called forward from
there into the site, but obviously those will be quite a long
way away, so during that time some vehicles get delayed, some
vehicles go more quickly, it is strange, but it happens, some
vehicles go more quickly than you expect, so the idea is that
this is a holding point from which vehicles can be called forward
by radio to the job that they need to go to. Basically, it is
to serve three sites, as Mr Elvin just said, first of all, the
Stepney Green ventilation and intervention shafts here (indicating),
secondly, the sites for Whitechapel Station just here (indicating)
and, finally, the Hanbury Street site just here (indicating).
The basic idea would be that for vehicles going to Whitechapel,
the majority of them would come into the Sainsbury's car park,
which is this bit here (indicating), do whatever they have got
to do and then turn around and go out again that way (indicating).
Vehicles which are going to this part of the Whitechapel site
(indicating) would come in in the same way, go through Durward
Street here (indicating) and then out of the site in this way
(indicating) and vehicles which are going to Hanbury Street will
come along here (indicating), up Greatorex Street, up Hanbury
Street and out that way (indicating). That is the basic plan for
the handling of lorries on the site.
4812. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: There
was concern expressed in the previous discussion we had about
the total numbers of lorries and lorries in the holding area,
and I wanted to be clear about this. As to the maximum number
of lorries that will be gathered in the holding area at any one
time, you quoted a figure of 25, but somehow a much greater figure
emerged in earlier discussions. Do not ask me what the basis of
it was, but it was significantly bigger than that. Are there any
circumstances in the holding area where we are likely to have
more than 25 lorries?
(Mr Berryman) I cannot envisage any. This holding area is,
if you like, the area for holding lorries immediately proximate
to the site. We will have a logistics site, at least one in East
London and at least one in West London, where the main deliveries
will be made and lorries will be sorted as to what timetable they
need to go in and so forth, but this will be the immediate holding
point. I think Lord James was concerned that lots of lorries would
be queuing up on this road as they tried to get in and the purpose
of this lorry-holding area is to prevent such an eventuality occurring,
so, if there is some sort of blockage here, lorries can be held
until that is cleared. It would be quite likely in normal operation
that there would be no lorries in here at all.
4813. Well, let's assume the worst-case scenario,
say, it is a bad hair day for Crossrail lorries or whatever and
you have got 25 lorries there.
(Mr Berryman) Already here (indicating)?
4814. Yes, in your holding area. How long are
they likely to be there at any given point? Can we estimate the
(Mr Berryman) Well, it depends what is causing the bad hair!
As I said, the normal situation would be that very small numbers
of lorries, if any at all, would be there. If it gets to the point
where every bay is full, then we would stop calling lorries forward,
but we would know that well before it got full if it became obvious
that it was going to be full.
4815. What is the maximum time? Let's assume
it is a normal day then and your predictions are right and there
are half a dozen or ten or whatever lorries there. How long are
they likely to be there?
(Mr Berryman) Minutes. I am discounting the possibility of
some really major event, in which case they could be waiting for
some time until they are all told to go home. Let's imagine for
a second that there is a fatal accident on site, and obviously
it is something we do not expect to happen, but let's assume for
a second that it does and the site has to be closed. The vehicles
which were being held there would be sent home at that point.
4816. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I
just wanted to explore what you were adding, if you like, what
deleterious effects you were having on the environment by lorries
at that point, and sometimes you envisage scenarios where engines
are left running or whatever, contributing to pollution, et cetera.
Are there instructions to ensure that that does not happen?
4817. MR ELVIN: Could I take that up
in a moment, my Lord, because I was going to take Mr Berryman
to a couple of aspects of the Construction Code because you will
find that those issues are addressed in the Construction Code?
4818. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I
took the precaution of reading that Construction Code and most
of the, if you like, assurances are focused on what happens when
they are at the site. It did not refer to the holding area, which
is why I took the trouble to explore what would happen at the
holding area. I may have missed it, but I did not see anything
referring to the holding area.
(Mr Berryman) I think for the purposes of this, the holding
area would be classed as a site.
4819. MR ELVIN: Your Lordship has seen
the section on air quality about lorry engines not running, which
is what I was referring to, and you are absolutely right, it refers
to a site, but you have Mr Berryman's answer.
15 Crossrail Ref: P23, East London Railway Extensions
Crossrail Ref: P23, TfL Map-Underground Zones (TOWHLB-XR5B-034) Back
Crossrail Ref: P23, Whitechapel Station Usage-AM peak period
(0700-1000), 2016 (TOWHLB-XR5B-039) Back
Crossrail Ref: P23, Proposed lorry routes from Burdett Road Lorry
Holding Area to Whitechapel Sites (TOWEHLB-XR5E_004) Back