Examination of Witnesses (Questions 4820
4820. BARONESS FOOKES: I just wanted
Mr Berryman to expand a little on the areas of management which
I gather are right outside London, outside the M25. This, I gather,
is where the major logistics will be planned and dealt with. Is
(Mr Berryman) That is right. I think there are effectively
three classes of vehicles which will visit the site. There are
concrete truck mixers which will be delivering concrete, there
will be earth-moving lorries which will be taking excavated material
away, not from the tunnels obviously, but from the works on the
surface, and then there will be the delivery of goods and materials
which are needed for the construction of the works. What we are
seeking to do, and this is slightly off the topic of the Bill,
is to build on the experience built up by supermarket chains and
applied latterly to some large projects, in particular, Terminal
5 at Heathrow, where we get a supplier of a material, let's say,
for example, tiles and all the tiles are delivered to a logistics
site somewhere outside the M25 and they are then sorted into the
loads for the different stations so that, instead of six different
suppliers each bringing a small load of things to one station,
you get big one load which comes in in one vehicle. You probably
know that most of the deliveries that are made to sites are for
relatively small quantities and what we want to try and do is
build those quantities into bigger, more discreet delivery sets
and, as I say, it is a system that has worked very well on Terminal
5. It is being used by a number of developers now in London and
we plan to build on that.
4821. So effectively you are taking the pressure
off the actual site by organising it from outside and only bringing
in things as they are required at the time they are required?
(Mr Berryman) That is correct. Also, for some reason which
I have never been able to get to the bottom of, suppliers seem
to love to deliver things early, and they
4822. Or late sometimes.
(Mr Berryman) Quite often late as well, but, apart from the
impact that that has on the number of delivery vehicles, it also
often makes it difficult to manage the site because you have got
things lying about that you do not need for three months, so the
idea of the logistics strategy is to avoid that as well.
4823. LORD SNAPE: I presume, Mr Berryman,
that lorries leaving the holding site will go up to the main road.
Is that the Mile End Road, the main road?
(Mr Berryman) It is, yes.
4824. They will turn left and then left again
to the first site or further down and turn right. In the event
of a blockage, some hold-up, a bad traffic accident or whatever
on the main road, would the lorry drivers be tempted to use one
of the side roads as a shortcut? If the answer to that is yes,
what would prevent them from doing so on a regular basis?
(Mr Berryman) The answer is that it would be tempting, but
they would not be allowed to do so.
4825. Who would stop them though?
(Mr Berryman) Well, as I think Mr Thornely-Taylor mentioned
yesterday, on large construction sites there is a very well-established
system for setting lorry routes and you will see signs all over
the place, saying, "No M1 widening traffic this way",
or something like that, and that is very well observed. We have
consulted with our colleagues on the Channel Tunnel Rail Link
and on other major projects and we know by experience that those
route guidance things are very well enforced and there is never
really a major problem.
4826. But you know from your own experience,
which is much wider than mine, that in the railway industry, for
example, there is a bridge bashed somewhere in the country involving
a heavy goods vehicle being wedged under a bridge, despite all
the road signs, virtually every day of the year. Discipline of
heavy goods vehicle drivers in this country does not seem to be
particularly good, yet you are asking the Committee to believe
that, as far as this particular scheme is concerned, everything
will go superbly well and drivers will never deviate from the
route that is laid down.
(Mr Berryman) Well, we certainly have evidence that on large
construction projects, and I am not speaking for the generality
of heavy goods vehicle drivers by any stretch of the imagination,
these routes are well observed. We have a typical sign here from
the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, this is in the Highbury Corner area,
where there is a specific sign up for the Channel Tunnel Rail
Link works traffic to a particular site and it is something like
that that we would be doing.
4827. MR ELVIN: Mr Berryman, is it right
that on Channel Tunnel there were, I think, two sackings of drivers
who breached the requirements of the lorry routing?
(Mr Berryman) I was not aware of that, but it would not surprise
4828. BARONESS FOOKES: What is the precise
system for the control of drivers to ensure that the rules are
enforced because I am sure that this is something very much of
concern to the residents?
(Mr Berryman) I am sure. Well, the first thing is that every
vehicle will carry identification to say that it is a Crossrail
vehicle and it will have a number, each vehicle will have a discrete
number, so, in the event that anyone observes a vehicle using
a route which is not permitted, they will be able to approach
4829. One-stop shop?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, our one-stop shop in the case of Whitechapel,
but I am not sure if we will have that on every site, but certainly
there will be a mechanism for approaching this to report the miscreant
and any appropriate action will be taken.
4830. LORD SNAPE: Just going back to
my original question, to which I did not get an answer, I am sure
inadvertently, Mr Berryman, in the event of a substantial hold-up
on the main road, would those drivers be authorised to use any
other route or would they be expected to wait in the holding site
perhaps for some hours in the event of a serious incident until
that incident is cleared and the Mile End Road is free again for
(Mr Berryman) It depends very much on the particular position
of the particular vehicle. If the vehicle has arrived at the holding
area and is being held, it would be expected to be held until
whatever has happened could be cleared. If the vehicle has not
arrived in the holding area and the holding area looks as if it
is going to quickly fill up, that vehicle will be sent back to
base. If a vehicle is between the holding area and the site and
there is some necessity to clear the road, the vehicle will be
expected to follow police instructions and, if the police instruct
the vehicle to go on a non-permitted route, then the driver is
allowed to do so, but only under those very limited circumstances.
4831. CHAIRMAN: Have they all got radio
(Mr Berryman) Yes, my Lord.
4832. MR ELVIN: Can I just understand
this, Mr Berryman: that, as you explained to Lady Fookes, you
have got your logistics site on the M25, lorries are then brought
into the respective holding areas and they are then held for however
long is required and then go to the site to avoid congestion and
problems at the site, and it is a variant of, I think it is, the
supermarkets' `just in time' deliveries strategy. Is that something
which has to be looked at in tandem with the local authority regime
for approving lorry routes?
(Mr Berryman) I think that would be one of the basic factors
which the local authority would seek to take into account when
allocating lorry routes. Obviously it is something we need to
negotiate with them. We have already entered into quite long discussions
with Tower Hamlets in particular but other authorities as well
and, no doubt, we will continue to do so until the time when the
works are underway.
4833. MR ELVIN: I have just had put up
section 4.2 of the Construction Code which is part of D1 and that
is the requirement for lorry management plans which are part of
the Schedule 7 approvals process with the local authorities and
that includes local roads to be used by lorries, lorry holding
areas, lorry routes signing strategy, the means of monitoring
lorry use and any routes prohibited from use.
Would this allow the local authorities, for example, to stipulate,
if we take Lord Snape's comments, whether there were routes that
could be used in an emergency or a procedure which ought to be
taken if there was an emergency blockage? Could that be used as
mechanism if the local authority thought it appropriate?
(Mr Berryman) It could be if the local authority
felt it was appropriate. I think in the particular case we are
looking at right now it is probably not particularly relevant
because there are not terribly many diversion routes along the
Mile End Road.
4834. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: Can
I ask how you are going to fulfil bullet point four? I assume
that is an obligation on you, not just the local authority when
it says, "means of monitoring lorry use and any routes prohibited".
How do you intend to do that?
(Mr Berryman) We normally have a system of site inspection,
inspectors who are responsible for a number of things, to make
sure the contractors comply with the requirements we put on them.
Obviously the works will be done by works contractors, as you
will appreciate, and they will probably have subcontractors who
provide them with lorries and the like, but the general way in
which contracts are enforced is by having inspectors who go around
and inspect the works.
4835. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: That
is the works, I am talking about the route.
(Mr Berryman) They will also inspect other things as well,
environmental impacts generally not just the lorry route.
4836. MR ELVIN: You will say lorries
will have numbers so they can be identified if a member of the
public or an inspector or someone else sees a lorry off the route.
Is that something in addition to the normal number plate?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, this will be a specific Crossrail number.
4837. Where will it be displayed? What is the
normal practice for these things?
(Mr Berryman) Sometimes they put them in the cab on the side
window or on the side of the vehicle, normally have one at the
front and one in the back. Maybe one in the windscreen and one
stuck on the back of the tipper.
4838. MR ELVIN: Again, is that something
which the local authority could stipulate in terms of the approvals
under Schedule, 7, i.e. highly visible appropriate numbering so
those who are monitoring can easily check?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, I am sure they could. It is a very well-established
industry procedure these days.
4839. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I
am willing to believe that, but I am still not utterly convinced.
That relies on the public. That relies on something going wrong.
Really what I wanted to ensure was that the lorry drivers would
not even be tempted because they know they are likely to be spotted
by an inspector if we go off-route and I think that is where there
does seem to be a slight gap. Certainly when you are establishing
that initial use, having a couple of people visible on key sections
of the route. The notice in the cab or visibly displayed that
is great, but that means the system has gone wrong.
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