Examination of Witnesses (Questions 4840
4840. MR ELVIN: You want prevention not
4841. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: Exactly.
I am asking you, can it be done, what is the normal practice?
(Mr Berryman) The normal practice is to rely on inspection
and also to rely on members of the public and the police, in particular,
reporting infringement and certainly local government staff and
so on would be interested in that. The difficulty is it is rather
like trying to prove a negative. If we put an inspector to monitor
the approved routes, all we know is about the vehicles that have
gone on the approved routes, we do not know about any of the vehicles
that have gone on a non-approved route and there are so many potential
routesmaybe not in this particular area but in some parts
of Londonyou can never check that other than by spot checks.
4842. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: You
can, but I suspect you probably will not go to the trouble. If
you go to Germany, you will find that every lorry in Germany can
be identified at a precise moment wherever it is with the satellite
tracking system that they now use there, which is what the Chancellor
announced yesterday. We are going to explore using them here.
(Mr Berryman) This is for tolling purposes, my Lord.
4843. Yes, it is a long way off and it is rather
expensive but it can be done.
(Mr Berryman) It can be, my Lord, but I have some experience
of this in the matter of buses because London Transport tried
to introduce a similar system here for the tracking of their buses
and the difficulty is in London the number of tall buildings make
it very, very difficult to make the tracking of the kind of accuracy
that you are talking about but I suspect
4844. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Technology
moves on, though. By 2012 it might be different, we may have different
lorries in 2012.
(Mr Berryman) Indeed we may.
4845. BARONESS FOOKES: Mr Berryman, can
we come down to earth from the satellite setting. What are the
penalties if anybody is found to have infringed this because if
the penalties are not severe enough, then it could be ignored
(Mr Berryman) It is normally considered as industrial misconduct
4846. What does that mean?
(Mr Berryman) It normally means dismissal.
(Mr Berryman) The driver.
4848. BARONESS FOOKES: What about the
(Mr Berryman) It depends whether the driver was acting on
his own initiative or he had been told to do that.
4849. MR ELVIN: If, as Baroness Fookes
suggests, there may be some firm fault, for example you discover
there is a systematic failure with the way the firm is dealing
with its drivers, would there be disciplinary procedures within
the contracts to ensure ---?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, there would be. The contract would contain
clauses on how that would be remedied. At the end of the day if
it was a really serious matter of negligence by the firm involved
it could result in a termination of the contract.
4850. MR ELVIN: Putting it at its bluntest,
would there be real incentives on the drivers and the firms to
ensure that they did not breach the routing requirements?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, there are real incentives in doing that.
4851. CHAIRMAN: I wonder if I could ask
you two questions. First of all, I know the road holding area
fairly well. It is quite wide there. It is just the main road,
(Mr Berryman) It is indeed, my Lord.
4852. You are just going to let them line up
on the left-hand side of the road?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, that is correct, my Lord.
4853. Going north, as it were?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, my Lord.
4854. Twenty-five of them?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, my Lord.
4855. Or more?
(Mr Berryman) It would not be more. The length of it is just
over 250 metres.
4856. All this area is in Tower Hamlets. How
far have you got in discussions with the Council as the highway
(Mr Berryman) These plans that you saw a moment ago are based
on the discussion we have had with them. We have been in discussion
with them since 2001. They are the authority on which I think
we have the most impact of any of the local authorities we are
dealing with and we have generally a very constructive relationship
with them and these matters have been discussed with them at great
4857. I think one of the things that impressed
us all when we went to Spitalfields was the narrowness of the
streets and also the very tight junctions. What does Tower Hamlets
say they may or may not want to do about that? You will not get
a large lorry around some of those corners.
(Mr Berryman) That is correct, my Lord. I think you are probably
talking about the routes which go around towards the Hanbury Street
4858. CHAIRMAN: That is where we went.
(Mr Berryman) Yes, there are a number of junctions which
will need improvement, in particular there is a junction between
Spital Street and a road whose name escapes me, Buxton Street
I think it is called, where we need to re-align the kerb and there
is a problem at the junction of Buxton Street and Vallance Street
which is why we have only got vehicles turning right on to the
main road because we could not find a way of accommodating vehicles
turning left at that point. This junction here will need improvement
and this is why the one-way system goes this way and why vehicles
are brought in this way because there simply is not room to make
a turning circle for a vehicle going that way at that point (Indicating).
Does that make sense, my Lord?
4859. BARONESS FOOKES: Is this where
the farm and the school are on the opposite side?
(Mr Berryman) The farm is just here, my Lady (Indicating).
20 Crossrail Ref: P23, Proposed lorry routes to Whitechapel
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